Need help making the jump

[davhey04]

All,

I know it will be hard to not fall apart laughing, but I am stalled trying to make the jump from Chieftain to Warlord.

(Waits for laughter to die down...)

No - I'm serious. I win 100% of the time on Chieftain but struggle just to survive to the end of a game on Warlord.

Some facts:

- Despite this, I LOVE Civ and am hooked. I have both C IV Expansions
- I'm not brand new to Civ - played 2 & 3 though had similar troubles
- I generally do not try for military victories

I think my problem has to do with not managing my citizens well, but my efforts there have not made things better. I have read over the many tips and strategy articles on this site (which are great) but something still is not connecting in my head. One thing is consistent, my games either end in me being wiped out or falling drastically far behind in research.

Perhaps if I understood what changes in the game and the AI between the two levels it might help. Or if anyone remembers what hills they had to learn to climb to get over this hump?

Any help, or even gentle mocking, is appreciated!

 

[Verge]

First of all, welcome to CFC!

A good idea that will net you better advice is posting a save game or, at the least some screenshots. That'll give us a better idea of what you're having trouble with.

Secondly, it sounds like your problem (at least regarding tech) is not building enough cottages. In your next game, try to improve the land around at least one or two of your cities with a smattering of cottages, and then build research multiplying buildings (libraries, universities, etc) in said cities. You should see a huge boost in your research rate.

 

[davhey04]

Thanks for the kind words (and no mocking). I never thought to attach a savegame. Attached is one of my better warlord level tries.

I -think- I build a reasonable amount of cottages. Maybe I'm wrong there. Hopefully the file will bring all my warts into the light.

 

[Verge]

Thanks for the kind words (and no mocking). I never thought to attach a savegame. Attached is one of my better warlord level tries.

I -think- I build a reasonable amount of cottages. Maybe I'm wrong there. Hopefully the file will bring all my warts into the light.

No problem. I'll try to take a look at it when I get home tonight.

 

[davhey04]

Thanks Verge - I read the forums often even if I never post. The friendly-ness of this community is constantly impressive.

I note with some humor my 'title' on the forums is Chieftain and yours is Warlord - the very transition I am trying to make!

Thanks again to you and to all.

 

[eewallace]

It is tough to say there is one right answer to making the jump. I know when I went from chieftan to warlord, one thing I had to revise was my isolationist policies. I had generally won on chieftain (peacefully) by teching like mad and winning space race or culturing like made and winning a cultural victory, seldom opening my borders or trading with anyone. Doesn't work when you get to higher levels because the AIs are teching and trading among themselves and will soon take the lead. Also, By keeping their missionaries out, I ended up being with the "heathen" religion and those that shared religion would gang up on me. Don't know if that is one of your problems, but if so, the answer is trading, open borders and diplomacy.

Another big obstacle to moving up levels is figuring out how many troops you need to build just to keep the AI civs from perceiving you as a nice target. Even if you are planning a peaceful win, you need to make sure you have enough troops to keep them off your doorstep.

 

[clut]

Are you keeping up with the AI in terms of expansion?? Try to make a note of when the AI's build new cities. I have found that the AI's usually settle their 2nd city around 2800BC.

This alarmed be a little because (at the time) I was still building warriors and things, but know I've learnt to expand quicker (but not too quickly).

The land grab phase at the beginning of the game is very important for two reasons:

1) If you don't grab enough land you'll never keep up with techs

2) If you grab too much land you'll only hurt your own economy and you won't be able to defend all your cities very well.

Try to watch the AI and see what they do.
Of course, play your own game, but Firaxis know how the game should be played.... and they programmed the AI!

 

[namliaM]

Ok, lets try this....

Why oh why... do you do things? That is the one thing you must ask yourself.

Some example:
WHY did you build the National epic in Uruk, your capitol... This building goes into your GP farm (for now all you need to know is... usually NOT your capitol)
You build Moai there too, but also have like 4 forrests and a forrested hill.

WHY do you preserve forrests??? Not only your capitol but also other cities like Lagash (this has even a jungle tile) and Eridu, replace all them forrests by Cottages, and mine the hills

WHY dont you build forges? Not a single of your cities has one, the 25% bonus in hammers is very usefull...

WHY dont you go sailing? You are past Astronomy and not even met the other continent. Those crosscontinental traderoutes really skyrocket your economy. Even at optict get a Caravel out to find the other continent to trade techs.

Kish at size 9 has the Globe Theatre (no angry people). Also this city is STAGNATE becuase it is to low on food. NO cottages at all here just farms mills and mines. What is more WHY is it building a bank??
Kish generates all of 3.6 raw commerce, the bank will add 1.8 gold.... THIS while Lagash is building a Musket.... Lagash currently generates 13.2 gold and doesnt have a Market, Grocer or Bank at all. Whats worse no Observatory either while its generating

Nibru has all sorts of buildings allready but no nets on them fish (+3 food!) working the mine (stagnated) and only now building a lighthouse. Again WHY?

Ur at size 6 and 12 happiness it still can grow 6 pop untill you reach the limit, so why build a temple (for +1 ? )

I think this is the first step you will make, WHY. Why do I do this, why do I do that?
Why add the bank if it is going to get me all off 1.8 GPT? Which is just about as good as.... nothing.... Change that bank to UNITS ONLY and go declare war on someone, you have not fought a single battle yet.

Why build a wall when you are not at war, and/or the city is not even near the front line.

One last why! WHY are your workers not out and about working their buts off. For one you only have 3 workers.... maybe that can work there is not that much land currently so maybe, but it feels low. There is still a lot of farming/mining and cottaging to do, still they do nothing.

I hope you will play another game asking yourself WHY. And post back to this thread, play your game untill say Code of Law.
Pick ONE city where you MAYBE want to preserve the forrests for later national park MAYBE... Actually I think in general -for now- kill all forrests period and replace them by something usefull, meaning cottage/farm/mine.
And balance your food (look at Kish for an example how NOT to do it).

WHY

WHY

WHY

I hope I didnt come down to hard on you.

Greets

 

[davhey04]

Not at all. I appreciate the feedback and I understand it can be frustrating to see someone so far off the mark. I put my game out there knowing it would hurt a bit to hear how bad I am, but it is the only way I will get better. I appreciate you taking the time to load it up and give me your thoughts.

As to why - here was my thinking to some of your questions, flawed though I am sure it is.

"WHY did you build the National epic in Uruk" - I think I built it for the points

"WHY do you preserve forrests???" - I fear pollution, probably too much

"WHY dont you build forges" - same thing, terrified of the pollution

"WHY dont you go sailing?" - it was in playing this game that I really began to grasp the concept of traderoutes at all. I'm not sure what causes one to form.

"Why build a wall when you are not at war" - I thought the wall would deter an attack by a neighbor. Not sure if the AI takes that into account.

"WHY are your workers not out and about working their buts off" - I do manually control my workers, but don't build something on every tile. Maybe I should be...

The answer to all other questions is probably that I don't manage my cities well. I sometimes get overwhelmed by all there is to keep an eye on.

Again - too hard on me? Not at all. I want to get better - I can take it. I appreciate the time you took!

 

[Verge]

Dave,

Looked at your save. Instead of inundating you with tons of tips and strategies, I'll give you the things I think will help you the most in improving your game.

1) Slash and Burn, baby. You have dozens of forest tiles completely untouched at the moment. Chop them down, all of them. Preservation of forests is a valid tactic in certain situations, but since we're trying to get you out of Chieftain difficulty, we won't worry about that. Instead, I'll just repeat: chop. Don't worry about "pollution," we'll talk about that in a second. After you've cut down all those forests, start replacing them with other improvements. Farms are good for getting some population. But what you should strongly consider building is:

2) Cottages and the Scientific Suburbia. More cottages. More. This is the most important of my suggestions, I think. In your game, I counted no more than 16 to 17 cottaged tiles throughout your entire empire. This is a good start, but you really should build more. In an Immortal game I just finished, one of my cities had all 20 of its tiles completely cottaged over. You probably won't be able to achieve this regularly on the average map (and you don't have to), but it also highlights another useful tip: when you build cottages, it's a good idea to concentrate as many of them into one city as possible. With all the commerce flowing, building libraries and universities will multiply that commerce output substantially, giving you a tremendous boost in the research department.

3) Embrace the Tech Swap. Right off the bat, I offered Mansa Musa Astronomy, and in return he gave me Nationalism, Education, and 10 gold. Trade techs around if you're lagging behind in research. And get to exploring, there are plenty of AIs you have yet to encounter that can offer more trading opportunities.

4) "Pollution" is just unhealthiness. There is nothing wrong with letting your cities become unhealthy (such as by building forges or chopping forests), because unhealthiness simply slows down growth. You can always rectify this by building structures that provide health, such as grocers and aqueducts.

5) Set a goal and stick to it. Your game isn't lost by any means, you just need to set yourself a goal. You're tepidly building units, but you're not at war, for example. If military conquest is what you're interested in, go full out, bang out units earnestly, and hit someone. Hard. Then go on the next guy, and then the next. Etc. But if you're more interested in a peaceful win, then get to building more structures in you cities. Beef up production and research for a space race win, or reach out to other civs for a diplomatic victory.

 

[davhey04]

Verge,

Wow - thanks for all the advice. One comment: the units I have been building are just to keep the AIs from attacking me. I know I have to keep my 'power' over a certain point or I will look too tempting.

What I would like to do is start a new game and let it get a little ways in, then post a new save for comment. Would this be OK? I'd like to see if I can take a bit of the advice I've gotten here and apply it.

 

[Verge]

Sounds good. I might pick up one of your saves over the weekend and play a shadow game, to offer some comparisons. It'd be a nice change from being roughed up on the game I'm currently on.

 

[JujuLautre]

"WHY are your workers not out and about working their buts off" - I do manually control my workers, but don't build something on every tile. Maybe I should be...

This is probably one of the worst mistakes ever. A tile with an improvement is (almost) always better than a tile alone and make the city that works it more efficient. So why not improve them?

 

[namliaM]

I agree with Verge, post the original save as well. We can both/all play a shadow game and see how it compares.

 

[davhey04]

All,

Thanks for the great comments and mentoring. Here's my start. All random set-up. I'll post my game 25 turns in so you can critique my early early game. I'll also post why I did things, so you can see my thought process.

 

[davhey04]

Ok, this is 26 turns in not 25. Here is a peek into my brain:

Opening thoughts:

Pericles (who I have never tried) has traits that seem to match nicely with my standard Space victory goals.

Greek UU is an Axeman replacement. I don't generally play aggressive, but if there's an early opening I might want to take it.

Coastal start site with two fish resources. Glad I know fishing from the start.

Hill tile for the City1 means extra defense - good for me.

***

City1 first build: Warrior - I have no defense
First research: Agriculture, to take advantage of the nearby Corn

***

Early notes:

Goody hut yields Settler. Amazing luck. I go for the Spices over the Gems for City2 due to the hills near the Spices. Was this madness?
City2 first build: warrior.

Second research: Pottery, to get cottages

Two more goody huts give me Mysticism and money.

First neighbor: Pacal II, Maya. Civlopedia entry doesn't imply he's overly aggressive - but I expect him to grow quickly. I don't want to get
crowded out.

Both warriors finish at the same time, even though City2 started much later. I look to see that the 2 citizens in City2 produce more hammers than
the 3 citizens in City1. I'm not totally shocked by this, I do play with where these guys are working from time to time. Still, my impression is
that I want my cities to get as big as they can before shuffling citizens around - unless I need to rush a build or a research. I'm pretty sure
though that managing cities and thier citizens is one part I am doing wrong. Second build for both cities is a worker.

Third research: Archery, I've done two non-military researches and I don't want to lag behind. Plus, as a defensive player I value archers a lot.

Fourth research: Mining, I have a lot of hills and want to exploit them.

Second neighbor: Akosa, India. Another guy I view as peaceful but likely to get big.

City2 third build: Agonized over this, finally picked Monument over Archer hoping for the border increase from culture.

City1 third build: Work boat, reassigned citizens to get this done faster. City1 still growing, just slower.

Workers starting the build roads to the resources (Corn in City1, Cows in City2)

Fifth research: Animal Husbandry, for the cows near City2.

Third neighbor: Zara, Ethiopia. Same story as the others.

THANKS!!

 

[JesusOnEez]

Hi!

City1 first build: Warrior - I have no defense
First research: Agriculture, to take advantage of the nearby Corn

Nope! Sure you have no defense, but you don't need any for quite some time on Warlord. I would have built a fishing boat first, working the highest hammer tile available (even if stagnant) to build it quickly. At Warlords, I'd probably build another one straight after, then perhaps a Worker, Warrior then Settler (note that the first Warrior build is to escort the Settler not for capital city defence). At Warlords, I'd usually have three cities before worrying about capital defence. In these early stages, it's worth swapping your worked tiles around constantly to get your priority finished faster. Is your priority a workboat? Work Hammers. Is it growth? Work those boats. Is it research, again at this early stages, work those boats.

Third research: Archery, I've done two non-military researches and I don't want to lag behind. Plus, as a defensive player I value archers a lot.

Nope! Again, defence isn't needed early on, and this is a dead end tech better traded for later. The general consensus is to get Bronze Working early, settle near copper and use Axes for early defence...yes, you really do have that long at Warlord level if you prioritise Bronze Working fairly early (third tech or so). If you don't have copper, then fair enough.

My 2 cents.

 

[Maben]

Been monitoring this thread, and as I know all of the stuff that's been posted here I wanted to pose a question to you pros . I've been currently playing all my games at Noble difficulty (where I started at) and I'm trying to move up to Prince. I win a majority of the games but I still don't think I'm ready. I typically run a lot of cottages, and I'm really liking the financial trait, but I usually have a food problem. Most cities have a few hills that I work mines on in order to get some production...even in a commerce city it pains me to take forever to build those libraries and universities.

Without food resources, should I dedicate some tiles to farms in order to balance out the mines? Should I not even be doing this and change them to windmills? If I find a good spot for a production city, should all tiles be mines/farms/workshops and not even look at cottages in this city?

What about plains spots? On a grassland tile a cottage is easy to build as it can support itself food wise, but what do I do to balance out the plains lack of 1 food? I'm trying to work better at specializing my cities, but the "cottage-spam" strategy seems pretty vague.

 

[namliaM]

JOE is right, you dont need the first warrior. Workboat or worker first is never a bad thing in SP games. MP games... now that maybe is a different story...

Archery is definatly not a tech to research yourself, or atleast not untill later on...

I dont pick agriculture either. Yes you need it for the farm but 2 workboats will give the food we need for now, we need to be able to chop and mine those hills east of Athens for the hammers.

A monument for the borders, hmz... Pericles is creative this means 2 free culture to pop the borders, no need for a monument.

This is what I mean, WHY do you need the monument, culture you say... but you have free culture, you are not looking at your WHYs close enough.
WHY do you need Agriculture? For the corn, but you dont even have a worker yet and you have food in the sea...

Note with them Calander resource and Jungled Gems I would prioritize both Calander and IW over most any other tech.

 

[namliaM]

Without food resources, should I dedicate some tiles to farms in order to balance out the mines? Should I not even be doing this and change them to windmills? If I find a good spot for a production city, should all tiles be mines/farms/workshops and not even look at cottages in this city?

Thread jack allert

It is all about specilization, a production city is a production city therefor doesnt get a single cottage, farms and mines thats about it...

A science city you can mix it up a little.... key word beeing little. Basicaly cottages as far as the eye can see. Think about it this way...
Library = +25% If you are working 4 cottages and you add another cottage thats another 25%. Offcourse there is an optimum somewhere...
Also adding a few farms (early on) in science cities helps them to grow faster, for whipping the library into existance with the angry citizens that are not working. Also more pop working more cottages sooner = more commerce.
Just 2 farms act as a granary doubling the growth rate of the city.