Need Help with American Onslaught

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by Icaria909, Jun 14, 2010.

  1. Icaria909

    Icaria909 Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    564
    I've been playing civ III for years and am mostly a solid regent player, i.e. I usually win. I've read the various strategies and guides, but I am now confronted with a situation that I don't usually find myself in.

    In most of my games, I set up a settler factory and expand very fast, building tons of workers to connect my cities. I usually try to get horses and iron and expand into one or two neighbors for land, so that I can spend the rest of the game focusing on culture and building. In most of my regent games, I'm done conquering people by the start of the middle ages, and by the time I'm in the industrial age I am the tech leader, the richest, most populous, and most cultured nation on the map. However, I try not build many good wonders (like great library) except maybe Smith's trading company later on.

    In this game, however, Many things went wrong. I am playing as the Aztecs on Kal-Els earth map, on regent, with every win condition and mass regicide. I was placed in Mexico and America was placed where it historicallys starts. We both expanded and I was able to keep up and at times out expand america, but by the time I was getting ready to attack america, I discovered I was really behind in techs (america had 8 techs that I didn't have) and they had multiple swordsmen compared to my many archers. In the first war, I was able to grab a city and get peace, and in the second war (in middle ages) I was able to grab another city in south america. after some consolidation and infrastructure building, I discovered America has twice as much land, but my empire has a higher population and I caught up in techs.

    But now, I'm in trouble. I never was able to get horses (america settled these areas in north america first) and has been building knights and cavalry like crazy. I've built a lot of medieval infantry and musketmen to counter him, but I can't seem to beat his armies any more. I've come to ask a few questions on how to improve my situation. I'm not used to wars in the industrial age, let alone wars where I don't have a significant tech advantage. It seems like I am going to be at war a lot of the game, so I need to know how to deal with a large military threat like this, this late in the game.

    My questions include:
    1. What techs should i research in the industrial age if I am expecting a lot of wars and my enemy and I are one of the largest civs.
    2. How do I deal with a war on a long border. My wars with america usually stretch all across the american west and southwest, and I don't have any fast units that can travel between cities quickly.
    3. What governement (if I should change) should I go after? I am currently a republic with an army twice as large as I can freely support and a ridiculous amount of corruption occuring.
    4. What units and how large of an army are best suited for industrial age warefare? I am in the middle of hooking up a horse to my capital in south america, so I could build cavalry soon, or should I just try and get infantry and tanks as quickly as possible?
    5. Should I build a navy? America has no navy, and I have many productive coastal cities that could build a navy relatively quickly. But, I don't know how useful having a navy in this landlocked war can really be.

    If someone would explain how to post a saved game I'll do that. Otherwise hear are some pics.










     
  2. Hellfiredoom

    Hellfiredoom Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    222
    Location:
    Seattle
    I always beeline to Replaceable Parts. Infantry, Artillery, doubles worker speed. All good stuff.

    Looking at your screenshots, I don't see railroads. The first Industrial Tech you get on the way to RP is Steampower, which allows railroads. Getting rails laid out across your empire is one of the most crucial management tasks you can do. Get a good stack (I get at least 60) artillery built, get the rails laid out, and you can whittle down any force America or whomever sends at you. Then pick off the red-lined enemy with Cavalry (so they can retreat to fight another day if they are losing the battle).

    Republic is good. Disband older units or upgrade them if you have the gold to spare. Don't leave units in cities behind front lines, keep them up front and fighting/defending. Setup corrupt towns as farms.

    Cavalry and Artillery to attack, Infantry in border towns (especially if they are only 1 tile from enemy territory) for defense.

    If your units costs are already high, then skip the navy. Even if they weren't high I would say skip the navy.

    To upload a save, click on the "attachments" icon and select your save file.

    Good luck and keep fighting the good fight!:goodjob:
     
  3. Hellfiredoom

    Hellfiredoom Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    222
    Location:
    Seattle
    Sorry for the double post, but I just looked at your screenshots again. Why aren't your tiles improved fully? I'm not familiar with the map, so I'm not sure if there are variant rules, but the key to Republic and affording a large army is to have your territory heavily improved. This means every tile a city is working is mined or irrigated, and everything roaded. You have to support town growth, and the commerce to fuel your empire.
     
  4. ChaosArbiter

    ChaosArbiter King

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2007
    Messages:
    903
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Hellfiredoom pretty much hit the nail on the head with his answers. Infantry and Artillery will be able to war effectively throughout the Industrial Age even if you never got Cavalry. Rails are a massive force-multiplier and increase productivity to boot.

    Except that units won't retreat if they're fighting a 1-HP unit. There's no real advantage to attacking a red-lined unit with Cavalry over Infantry.

    Specifically, pretty much any unit in Central America is wasted GPT. You have 10 units in your third screenshot (Teayo, Tamin, Tula, etc) that are wasting space when they could be supporting your troops against America.

    Pretty sure there are no variants (unless self-imposed), but my guess is that Icaria909 doesn't have enough Workers and doesn't have them working the right tiles. Icaria909, you did say you build tons of Workers, but I can only see 9 in your screenshots, most of which seem to be working on connecting cities and/or resources .... Have you lost many of them? In any case, your tile improvement seems a bit random. Huexotla and Tlalmanalco have 6 Roaded and Mined tiles between them, but Tenochtitlan doesn't have *any*. Your Capital, by virtue of being your capital, has no corruption, while Huexotla and Tlalmanalco will have at least *some* corruption.

    Something else ... you have an awful lot of Regulars ... are they simply the first-born units of the cities they're inhabiting, which don't have Barracks, or do you not have many Barracks at all? That extra HP from being a Vet can make a huge difference.

    And I see at least four Settlers, which isn't too bad ... except they're being sent south, where you *know* there are lots of Barbarians, and they don't have Escorts. If you're not careful, it can shape into a real waste of shields if they get wacked, or a loss of Gold if the Barbs hit new-founded cities.
     
  5. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    5,314
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Icaria909,
    If you use the "Post Reply" button, and scroll down, you'll see a button that says "Manage Attachments." Click that and you should get a pop-up box that will let you upload the save from your computer.

    Just from looking at the saves, it looks like the 'Muricans settled right up against your core in the north. It always makes me nervous to have anyone that close to my good cities. You really should have pushed them back earlier.

    That aside, though, it does look like you have an awful lot of core areas unimproved. You don't have nearly enough roads in the core. As someone pointed out, one of the keys to a successful Republic is having enough roads. One of my basic rules is that no worker leaves a tile without building a road. Down in South America, you have boatloads of jungle that will take tons of worker turns to clear. The fastest way to clear a jungle tile is to drop a settler on it. Turn all of that into specialist farms. Claim as much of it as you can. Coal can appear in the jungle and you need rails.

    And infantry and artillery, as others have mentioned. Artillery serves the dual purpose of softening up defenders, and pinging invaders. Often, the AI can be convinced not to actually attack by simply pinging their attackers. That can give you some time to thin out attackers before heading into their territory. Then use arty to soften up defenders, and bring in your cavalry. There is one small advantage to attacking redlined units with fast movers: if your attacker wins, it can kill the last unit of a stack, then retreat back into your stack, where it can be safely covered by infantry.

    I also see lots of units in towns that can't be directly attacked.

    Good luck!
     
  6. M60A3TTS

    M60A3TTS Ex-treadhead

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    Yes, not enough workers, no visible cannons, elite units being left for the AI to kill, military units being built where there is not a barracks, and city builds, some unnecessary that will take ages to complete are definitely flaws in this game. But not to worry, you post a save and you'll be humbling Father Abraham before you can say "human sacrifice."
     
  7. Icaria909

    Icaria909 Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    564
    Thanks everyone so far for the advice. I just felt it necesary to explain myself a bit more.

    I used to have a lot of workers (in comparison to the amount of cities I owned) but, I just recently sent out multiple settlers and units and were about to make more workers when the americans attacked me. Instead I've been producing military units rather than my intended workers. (by the way, my settlers are accompanied by pikemen, but for some reason you can see my settlers at the head of each stack instead of the pikemen).

    I've worked some tiles, but only the tiles that can be used by the city so far. For instance, my cities are only a 12 population at maximum, so I've only built some improvements to work those 12 tiles (although you guys are right that I definately should have worked more tiles than I have been). How many workers would you suggest I get, I have around ten at the moment, mostly connecting my new cities in south america?

    I have seven to eight barrackses, mostly in my core cities. I used to produce all my units in these cities, but in the second war I had with america, I couldn't produce units fast enough with only these cities, so I had built many units in cities without barrackses; that's all those units you see in the first shot that aren't veterans. I have around 10-15 veteran/elite troops on the border near chicago.

    I've never built catapults/artillery etc in other games, so I think I had around three cannons when the war started. The american knights and cavalry you see near chicago in the first screen shot are about half of the units america originally had (Many of their units had been killed or fled from an invasion attempt on Texcoco, but they captured chicago from me the next turn instead).

    I have multiple units in central america because I was afraid that america would try to land an army there, but considering they have no navy, you guys are probably right that I should disband/bring these units to the front.

    It seems that most people say I need more artillery, beeline for railroads and infantry, and build specialist farms in south america. I am not exactly sure what specialist farms are ( do you even try to build buildings in these cities?). I am currently trying to post a save, I am just having trouble finding the Civ III file. I'll post it as soon as possible so you guys can have a more accurate picture of what I'm talking about. thanks so far for all the advice.:D
     
  8. ChaosArbiter

    ChaosArbiter King

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2007
    Messages:
    903
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Depending on whether you're Industrious or not, anywhere from 1 to 2.5 Workers per City is a good number. Especially one you start getting Rails, though, you're going to want more Workers to get those Rails up *fast*.

    The AI is miserable at naval invasions anyway. They're slightly dangerous in this case, as they have fast movers and you don't, but normally you'd have a couple turns to get some troops down to guard against any attempted landings (which generally won't have more than 2-4 units anyway).

    Pretty much, although the bit about Specialist Farms is more what you're going to *have* to do with SA, as the cities are going to be in poor spots and suffering big corruption.

    A Specialist Farm generally doesn't have any - or many, at least - buildings. All it needs is Food, as you put as few Citizens on Food as possible (2, usually, with Railed Irrigated Grasslands, giving you 4 Specialists) and the rest as either Taxmen or Scientists, giving you 8 Gold/turn or 12 Beakers/Turn. Generally they're either put on Wealth or bombard units.

    Just curious, what version of Windows are you running that you're having trouble finding them? I have Windows 7, and actually have two locations with saves (and I'm not sure why there are saves in both :/ -
    C:\Program Files (x86)\Firaxis Games\Civilization III Complete\Conquests\Saves

    This is where Saves would normally be put, or something very similar. The other place is -
    C:\Users\[User]\\AppData\Local\VirtualStore\Program Files (x86)\Firaxis Games\Civilization III Complete\Conquests\Saves

    This one took me a while to find. :confused:
     
  9. Mursi lives

    Mursi lives Warlord

    Joined:
    May 27, 2007
    Messages:
    250
    Then your should space your cities more tightly, letting no tile unworked. I assume you are waiting for sanitation an hospitals, but that is very slow. Civ3 is about geometrical growth, not long-term planning. Use your tiles as fast as you can.


    Barracks are very cheap, though. Only 20 shields for Aztecs. Even if Americans caught you off-guard, you could probably gold-rush some of them, putting the science slider to 0 if necessary.


    No we don't :). Since corruption affects shields and commerce but not food, the best use of highly corrupted cities is to irrigate/railrod everything you can and use the surplus food to feed scientists. For example what can you expect from the courthouses you are building in South-America (not to mention it will take forever to get them)? 1 or 2 extra commerce? maybe 1 extra shield? :(. A single scientist would give you 3 beakers.
     
  10. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    5,314
    Location:
    Arkansas
    These other fine fellows have already outlined specialist farms. Water everything and hire specialists. Don't build improvements, generally. Here's the big thing about specialists: their output isn't affected by corruption or multipliers. A scientist gets you 3 beakers, regardless of whether he's in the capital or way out in the boondocks, and regardless of whether the town has a library or uni. In the case of South America in your game, the other thing to keep in mind is that flipping someone to a scientist gets you those 3 beakers now. In time you might squeeze a little extra gold or shields out of a few towns with courthouses, but those will take 80 turns to build in some places. Flip even one person to a specialist in that town and that's 240 uncorrupted beakers in the same time frame.
     
  11. Hellfiredoom

    Hellfiredoom Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    222
    Location:
    Seattle
    Absolutely perfect! :goodjob:
     
  12. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    5,077
    Location:
    Ohio
    I have never seen one other thing about specialist farms on here, but I have used it on occasion: Rioting does not affect specialist output. I was a Republic, caught in a protracted war with major WW and my farms were all rioting. My productive cities were fine(having 8 luxes and marketplaces helps alot). My science output was unaffected.
     
  13. Aabraxan

    Aabraxan Mid-level Micromanager

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    5,314
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Well, I'll be. I don't guess I ever really thought about that, Overseer.

    Edit: And now that I do think about it, that would have been really handy to know towards the end of Aabra-cadaabra.
     
  14. M60A3TTS

    M60A3TTS Ex-treadhead

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2004
    Messages:
    2,526
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    For lack of anything better to do last night, I took the same scenario, same civ and played to 30BC. Not perfect by any stretch, but a yardstick you might compare your start to.

    Spoiler :
    4000 BC
    Found capital, granary in 30, worker to wheat
    We know America and Iroquois are on the Americas, so they start with alphabet/pottery and pottery/masonry. I will start with Bronze Working at 90%, due in 32.

    3950BC
    Food is power. Worker starts to irrigates wheat tile.

    3750BC
    Irrigation complete. Start road.

    3600BC
    Road complete, move to wheat tile.

    3550BC
    Start irrigating wheat tile
    Border expands. American scout shows up.

    3400BC
    Pop 3, science to 80%, BW in 13

    3350BC
    Irrigation complete, start road

    3200BC
    Pop 4, move citizen onto floodplain to keep food at +5.
    Science to 70%, BW in 6

    3150BC
    Granary complete, start worker

    3100BC
    Worker completes, start warrior in 2.

    3050BC
    Science to 60%, BW in 3.
    Second worker joins the first

    3000BC
    BW in 2. Running 50% science, 30% lux.

    2950BC
    Warrior done, settler in 5.

    2900BC
    BW-> Iron working in 32 at 70% science

    2710BC
    Settler complete, settler in 5.
    Send settler north to where I see 2 cows.
    Check in with Lincoln who knows masonry and has learned warrior code.

    2630BC
    Second city of Teotihuacan founded and starts warrior. Iron working is due in 20.

    2510BC
    Capital finishes settler, starts another.

    2470BC
    Teotihuacan finishes warrior, starts granary.

    2320BC
    3 American warriors in the neighborhood.

    2310BC
    America declares on us and takes empty Teotihuacan!

    2270BC
    My warrior parked on a mountain tile attacks American warrior and retakes the city! Unguarded settler tries to move away from Americans and disturbs a barb encampment. Ouch, been a while since I played with Barbs. Settler dies in the inter-turn.

    2230BC
    2 American warriors attack Teotihuacan again and lose, I promote elite.

    2190BC
    Complete regular jaguar warrior in capital and start barracks. City 3, Tlateloco founded south of the capital.

    2070BC
    Iron working-> alphabet in 12

    1870BC
    Had to back off science a tad
    Capital settler-> spear in 3.

    1790BC
    Tlateloco warrior-> barracks

    1750BC
    Capital spear-> settler in 4

    1700BC
    Found city #4, Texcoco next to where my settler once perished.

    1650BC
    The Americans want peace. Fat chance, you pissed off the wrong civ, pal!

    Alphabet->writing in 15

    1600BC
    Tenochtitlan can be a 5 turn settler factory or a 2 turn worker factory.
    I’ll settle for workers at the moment and see how that goes.

    1550BC
    Tlaxcala founded on the west coast, barracks in 7.

    1525BC
    Aztec empire
    5 workers
    4 warriors
    5 spears
    1 Jaguar warrior

    1450BC
    American archer dies against Texcoco spear.

    1425BC
    Tlateloco finishes curragh, starts worker

    1400BC
    Tlaxcala barracks-> spear

    1325BC
    Writing-> masonry in 9

    1250BC
    Teotihacan fights off American archer and sword.

    1225BC
    Xochicalco founded, starts worker

    1150BC
    American warrior loses to spear at Xochicalco
    Masonry done, math in 11

    1100BC
    Iron is connected

    1025BC
    Tlacopan founded, starts walls

    975BC
    Atzcapotzalco founded

    950BC
    Find the Iroquois at Niagara Falls
    At this time I have 11 workers and 9 cities

    925BC
    Trade the Iroquois writing for Ceremonial Burial, Wheel and 1 gold. He is polite.
    Kill an American warrior with my lone sword that is now elite

    900BC
    Tlacopan on the American front gets walls.
    2 regular American swords attack an elite spear in Texcoco and fail miserably.
    We learn math. Could be useful. Literature in 13.

    875BC
    Found Tzintzuntzen, start warrior

    825BC
    Found Malinalco. Start warrior
    Suffer first loss as American regular sword kills my regular spear and promotes.



    800BC
    My sword kills his wounded sword and is elite. My vet sword kills his regular spear at Texcoco

    Teotihuacan finishes a new weapon. Now I have a catapult. Ho-Ho-Ho.

    775BC
    Texcoco riots.

    710BC
    At Malinalco, an archer and warrior are smitten by 2 swords, one promoting elite.
    Tula founded

    650BC
    Sword kills spear. Three American swords are behind the river. I move up 2 vet spears of my own to cover the sword.

    America loses two swords, I lose a spear.

    630BC
    Tamuin founded, starts walls in 5.

    Another battle looming. I advance an elite spear, catapult, 2 vet swords and a regular sword. Get literature, start currency.

    610BC
    2 catapults redline a regular spear. Our elite sword attacks and wins. Two more of my vet swords attack his 2 2hit point swords and both mine win, and I get a promotion to elite. I move a force east to punish Lincoln.

    The Americans are calling again. We tell them to come back another day.

    The Iroquois have established an embassy with us and very polite. How nice. Let’s play pin the tail on Abraham while getting horseback riding for 42 gold.


    530BC
    America is trying to do an end run to the north with a small amount of troops.

    490BC
    Kill 2 spears and level Philadelphia
    Kill another American regular sword with my vet one

    470BC
    Teayo founded, starts walls

    410BC
    Chalco and Cempoala founded.
    American sword dies against our vet spear in the open.
    Paris completed the Great Wall



    370BC
    Kill 2 regular archers at Tamuin

    350BC
    Currency comes in, mapmaking in 6

    290BC
    Tlalmanalco founded on the American frontier. Scout team of sword and spear find horses in unclaimed land.

    270BC
    Kill an American regular sword with artillery and an elite sword

    230BC
    Map making, code of laws in 5

    Aztec stack of death arrives at Seattle. Doom is at hand with 6 swords and 8 catapults against a regular spear seen in defense.

    190BC
    Seattle’s 2 spears are reduced to 1 hp each and killed by swords. The city burns and Ixtapaluca is founded next to the ruins as we had brought a settler along.

    170BC
    America loses 2 regular swords against my two veteran swords.

    150BC
    2 vet swords kill 2 regular spears and New Orleans lies in ruins

    130BC
    Lose a vet sword to a green warrior. It happens.
    Code of laws, philosophy in 4

    110BC
    Huexotla founded

    70BC
    Tepexpan and Tepetlaoxtoc founded

    50BC
    Philo done, Republic in 16 turns

    30BC

    22 cities
    3 settlers
    22 workers
    6 warriors
    1 archer
    20 spearmen
    20 swordsmen
    16 catapults
    6 jaguar warriors
    2 curraghs

    Chiconautla founded on horses. Of course from here we would go on to destroy the Americans, then the Iroquois and eventually rule the world.

     
  15. Hellfiredoom

    Hellfiredoom Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    222
    Location:
    Seattle
    :lol: Good to know I'm not the only one that loves to serve up revenge on a cold platter.
     
  16. Icaria909

    Icaria909 Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2008
    Messages:
    564
    Thanks for that. It was really helpful in showing me that I need to focus on my military far earlier than I usually do. If I was you, I would have asked for peace as soon as possible, yet you built a pretty good army and were kicking the american's butt for a long time, so I definately need to work on that.

    I wanted to say thanks to everyone who has responded so quickly with so many good suggestions. I've used a lot of the advice posted. I set my research to 0 and started paying for cannons. I hauled them up to bombard the knights as they made their way to my cities and got most of them to retreat before even attacking. after restoring my research to prewar levels I got steam power and have built an additional 15 workers to build railroads as I prepare to counterattack. I just purchased electricity from China and am now several turns away from replaceable parts and infantry. I think I can manage the americans at this point. I also want to thank everyone for the suggestion of specialist farms, I'm making a ton more gold than I was before as I finish settlin the northern half of south america.

    Sorry I couldn't post a save. I can get as far as Civ III/ Conquests/Conquests, but after that I don't seem to have a visible save folder (although there is a visible save forlder in the game. shrug). So thanks everyone, Hopefully soon I can make my way to monarch.
     
  17. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13,905
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    Are you on Vista or Win7? In Win7 if the game is running other than admin, it cannot save in the x86 folder. IN that case it will be in USER folders. Do a search for *.save.
     
  18. dalgo

    dalgo Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2002
    Messages:
    1,426
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    I'd suggest you have one too many 'Conquests' in the name. That relates to individual conquest scenarios. Try just Civ III/Conquests/Saves.
     
  19. vmxa

    vmxa Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13,905
    Location:
    Oviedo, Fl
    Taken a close look at M60 and Icaria's screens I am not seeing Kal-El's map. The 180x180 does not have water at the start. It also has lots of volcanoes that are missing, so where is the map that is being used here?

    It looks more like the start of Marla's map?
     
  20. GamezRule

    GamezRule Inconceivable!

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2009
    Messages:
    8,668
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Michigan
    Taking dalgo's advice, if saves does not show up, look for a button called compatibility files. (you may need to be in Windows Explorer [My Computer] to do it)
     

Share This Page