Need Help with Domination

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Whiterussian, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. Whiterussian

    Whiterussian Warlord

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    Hello All

    I am having a bit of problems with domination victorys. I used to play on Prince and thanks to watching the MadDjin Videos made it to King level now (thanks MadDjin!)
    Cultur and Science victory, no big problems.

    If i try to win a domination victory i allways get kicked in the butt. At the start i am mostly OK, but then the AI is overtaking me Sciencewise and i end up fighting with Musketers against WW1 Infantry and Artillery... Often enough a few Musketers against a lot of Infantry...
    Also since i get a lot of puppet Citys i am having issues with the Happines.

    I think what i need is a better basic strategy, Techs, Pop growth, city placement, religion, etc etc.
    Who can help me, or where can i find information on that? I can't find any decent LP Videos and can't find any good information on CFC either.

    Thanks!
     
  2. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I just beat Immortal as France via domination. I didnt attack until I had knights. I went tall with 3 cities and focused on pop which leads to hammers and science. Full Tradition/Full Honor/Part Rationalism/Part Commerce/Part Autocracy. I was the lead in science almost all game.

    I attacked one neighbor(puppet only cap, raze others), then the other(puppet 4 cities, later let 1 join me). Then I fought a stalemate war with the next guy with muskets and cannons, so I waited until I had artillery. Then I killed him (puppet only cap, raze others). Then I waited until i had battleships and I killed the #1 guy, Spain cross the ocean (again puppet cap, raze). Then I waited until I had 3 nukes and I sniped the last guy(done).

    So, tech up and be sure you have hammers. I puppeted everything, I only had 3 cities that were my own, but Paris was a 36.
     
  3. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    The best strategy is to have a good plan. :) Applies for any VC.

    IMO, the key for successful domination is to keep pushing all the time and not losing the momentum.
    Some basic guidelines:
    - Pick a proper victim. One that is close geographically and doesn't have overwhelming forces you can't handle. Use demographics screen and military advisor to assess opponents' military strength and scientific progress.
    - Always plan ahead. I.e. know who's your next victim (with regard to previous point), what units are you gonna attack it with and what techs you need to achieve that. Set your research accordingly.
    - Keep in mind upgrade path of your units and consider that when you plan the research.
    - Don't neglect science. Domination doesn't mean no libraries or universities. Sounds like your problem lies here. Having National College asap and universities at least in couple of core cities is necessary except for some marginal cases when you steamroll the whole map in 100 turns. For example, on king the period of time when composite bows are relevant is quite long. You can easily detour to Education and build/buy couple of universities and fill scientists slots before you have to upgrade them to crossbowmen and therefore tech Machinery.
    - Stay focused. The only things that should concern you are having more units, more advanced units and the happiness to support additional cities. All the rest is unimportant. If you execute one successful assault and then start to waste resources on building some of this, some of that, culture, wonders and all kind of not necessary stuff that drags you away from your main goal, you'll stagnate. Keep thinking 'war'. :)
    - Chose SP wisely. Don't go straight Honor. Chose Tradition or Liberty. Honor is better as second tree. The synergy with Oligarchy is especially good. You can garrison cheap units for free in each city and gain happiness.

    This is one way. There is another way when you develop peacefully until industrial give or take, invest in science, gain a significant tech lead over AI and steamroll everybody with late game units. Whatever you like more. If you provide a map you have difficulties with we can give a more specific advice.
    And BTW, there are lots of good videos. MadDjinn's Maya LP for example. It looked very hopeless at times, still he managed to pull off a victory. Which means there is no need to give up if things don't look good. If recovery on deity is possible for sure it's possible on king. :)
     
  4. Whiterussian

    Whiterussian Warlord

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    Two good answers allready, thanks!

    A few thoughts before i start my next game:
    -Start War later on. OK makes sense. How do i set up my citys? Just Production focused? First food then production? What Size?
    -How far should i go with my "military" tec? Crosbow and then some science?
    -If i raze citys instead of pupped them, won't the AI just fill the space with citys?

    I got to go play now. As soon as i messed up, i will post the save ;)
     
  5. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    You don't have to. If you have an early UU (the Huns and such) you'd better make some use of it. Some units are better than others of course. But even if you don't have such, you can rush as early as getting Construction (or even Archery at king?). Composite bowmen are the best early units for both offense and defense. But you can wait for some later units as well. Again, best choice would be strong medieval UU, like Siamese elephants, keshiks etc.

    You don't need huge cities that can crank out wonders in like 8 turns, you'll be limited by unhappiness. But they should be in decent size so they can build units in reasonable pace (~4 turns) and all happiness/science buildings. Usually it means food focus at first and production focus later. Happiness will dictate the actual size.

    It's about balancing. The common path is National College first, then attack with composite bowmen. On king you can probably demolish at least 3 civs with them. During this time you can clear the upper branches of the tech tree towards Education and Astronomy if you play continents, then go for Machinery, Steel, Physics and upgrade.

    Not on king. Or any level if you beat the AI bad enough. If you take one city (out of 6 or so) and sign a peace treaty, then it's very likely. Beat them down to the ground and leave with one smallest city. This way they'll never be a threat again.
     
  6. bison21

    bison21 Warlord

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    All the advice you need has already been given, so I thought I'd offer my humble view as I have played for a long time on king and never found out what was lacking for the higher difficulties, and now I'm in between emperor and immortal.

    My absolute main issue was that I always wanted to be 300% sure I'd capture that city, or win that battle. That led me to waiting loads of turns for my imba-tech to be researched, or that one more bowman to be produced. This led to a big problem that I would basically start a war with pikemen, and end it with gatling guns- because of my endless wanting-to-make sure, the game felt it progressed too quickly. I didn't consider turn 390 to be late in the game. Well, it is. Certainly the AI will have pushed for victory at this point.
    It might be from my lack of background with civ, but after a war, I always felt that I needed 'a rest' first. But there are no advantages to that. The AI will consider you a warmongerer regardless.

    If you watch MadDjinn, you will find that he often goes into battles that seem completely mad to get into with so few units, or the fact that he never uses the instant-heal upgrades. Try a playstyle similar to this, and you get a feeling of how different the game feels.
     
  7. Whiterussian

    Whiterussian Warlord

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    Had a really good start last night. After placing three good enough citys, noticed that i don't have any Iron. So had a quick war with Nebi and annexed two of his citys both with Iron. left Nebi with one small. Now the plan is to raze all other citys in my way to victory. I guess 5 Citys is not too big?
    My main worries now are that my new citys are really close to Sweden, and i have seen Attilas Army... man it is huge!! Thankfully they are not close to me.
    So fingers crosed!
     
  8. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    You can keep as many cities as you have happiness. Its just a function of happiness and the releative location of the city with regards to the strategic situation. . Dont worry about a guy with a bigger army unless you are going to face him next. Its the job of the army to take and hold groung, so if you can kill whatever he throws at you, the size of his force is irrelevant except in terms of how long it takes you to kill it. Dont forget you can use gold to but more troops if you need them or to build up your forces faster.

    Sometime you have to take the heal promo or you will lose the unit.
     
  9. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    Agreed. Heal Instantly should be an absolute last resort, but it is just that. There's no point getting that Cover II if the unit is going to die the next turn.

    This segues into something that I took a long while to get settled into was dealing with units being expendable. I used to be very afraid of losing units and this led to me being quite slow in advancing through wars and pushing through the AI, and on Deity this is just a recipe for disaster because the AI is just going to keep throwing stuff at you.

    Remember that your meatshields are just that: meatshields. That doesn't mean you should let them die willy-nilly, but you should not be afraid to lose one(even a reasonably promoted one) if it lets you do something important like take a city.

    Take this example:
    Spoiler :


    41 strength city with a Trebuchet and a Frigate in it, able to just spike down my units hard. In the past I would have seen this city and thought "Well, maybe I'll just wait for Cannons..." which would have delayed me quite a bit. Indeed, that was my gut reaction. The more I thought about it though, the more I realized I could sacrifice a meatshield or two in exchange for the city and decided to push in like that.

    The result:
    Spoiler :


    Yeah, I lost a Shock II Musket. Oh well. That's more than a fair trade for a city. I think this was part of my evolution as a player and becoming much more willing to take losses, which I think is a process many of us have experienced.

    The most important thing, though, is to keep pace with technology. Several people have pointed that out and for good reason. Beakers are probably the most important thing in Civ V(hammers are the only thing even close). Try to get to Education and build universities before going after Renaissance war techs. To me, going for Gunpowder and anything after that without Education is a trap unless maybe you're a civ with a UA/UB conducive to strong beakers and can afford to stave off Education a bit longer if getting that important tech sooner will allow you to make a big move.
     
  10. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    To take a tough nut, you have to swarm with more units than they can kill before you kill them. It doesnt matter the time period. In a big city seige go in with 4+ shooters expect to lose 1 every turn. Have more on the way. Hopefully they will fall in 2 or 3 turns. Move in your grunts after a round of siege or they will get targeted first and eventually you will run out. You dont want to run out because your shooters are poor at holding ground. Then when the city is damaged decide if you want to trade blows like that or risk a high loss assault that will result in heal time for you. You have to get a feel for it. Remember you can pillage while you are in there before you attack.
     
  11. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Very true. And bison's point is also very true. No need to wait for imba-tech to make sure not a single unit get killed in the battle and everything goes smoothly 100%. That's exactly where you lose the momentum. Unless your army is small but an era ahead, there will be casualties. So what? It's a war, isn't it? :)
     
  12. Whiterussian

    Whiterussian Warlord

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    And who said the Huns wheren't going to be a threat ;)
    After taking the Stockholm and Rom, the Huns sneaked behind my army and started picking up my Citys... guess i will need to reload a savegame
     
  13. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    As I said, you should post it. Or few screenshots at least. Otherwise there is no way to know what went wrong and give you any specific advice.
     
  14. Whiterussian

    Whiterussian Warlord

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    This time i know what i did wrong, left the back door wide open... bad tactics. I can still try to upload the file tonight, would be nice if someone could have a look and let me know what else i might do wrong
     
  15. Novalia

    Novalia Prince

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    It's all down to experience with regards to taking cities as well. After a few battles you'll get a better feel for what the AI is going to do. For example the AI will always focus fire on the most damaged unit in range. Use that knowledge to approach a city. It's better to go in with one slightly damaged melee unit ahead of your siege units. The city/archer/frigate will all target that damaged unit til it's dead. This is good. The last thing you want is for the AI to start picking off your siege units every turn. If you have two meat shields taking that sort of damage for two to three turns it gives your siege units time to do its damage. Then you swoop in with a mounted unit to take the city.

    Also if you chose save promotions in advanced game set up options you can hold off promoting that one lead melee meat shield until he gets almost totally killed. Then you choose the heal 50, pillage a tile and you're back up to >75 health.

    The lead unit doesn't have to live. He just has to give your siege units enough turns to damage the city enough for something else to swoop in.

    Ultimately it's all down to preparation. All your siege units need to get straight into firing position the turn you expose your meat shield to a city defense. If you walk in half assed they'll pick you apart.
     
  16. Whiterussian

    Whiterussian Warlord

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    So i attached a save from last night. Never done that so hopefully it will work.

    I do have some experience, don't worry, i come all the way from civ1 and got about 660h in CiV. Just never really bothered with higher dificultys much.

    So, the Save is after i retook Babylon, as i said before i went down to get Rome, and the Huns sneaked behind my back and took Babylon. Wasn't too bad because i was able to take it back, but still lost quite a lot of time (Rounds).
    Also what i was worried about, the respaming of the beaten down civs, Someone mentioned this won't happen on King Level. Well, look at Helsinki, Akkad and Nippur on my map... These citys sure aren't a problem to beat, but they are in my way, and make unit movement even worse than it allready is with this 1UPT. Not really a problem on this map i addmit, but really bad on pangea. Usually that is why i puppet all the citys i take, but then i run out of happyness.
    This time around i have no problem tech wise. Don't really know why it is going so perfect. Usually it is the other way round if i play on king...
     
  17. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    For start your economy is in really bad shape. Not all cities are connected, despite the fact you have a belief that benefits from trade routes. You need more workers to take care of that. You also have lots of multiple resources which you can sell to make some quick cash.
    Science-wise you're already behind Genghis (it's Mongolia, not the Huns :)) and with amount of cities he has he'll increase his lead in both techs and military if you don't take measures right now. You research path is not optimal at best. There is no reason to waste 20 turns on Fertilizer when you don't have Theology. What you need to do now is to switch to upper branch, research Education and build/buy universities. I'd also annex Rome. It's a good city and can build a university, have both scientists and still crank out units fast. BTW, should have taken Neapolis too since you were there and bribe Genghis to DoW Rome to finish them off.

    Your initial expansion was not rapid enough. Having 2nd city on turn 50 and 3rd on 68 is very late considering Liberty. Granted this is yucky land, still you should have expanded faster to grab the spot of the Babylonian city you've captured. Also you lost lots and lots of hummers on not necessary stuff. Colossus in capital gives you nothing, since you don't work any sea resources. Same for lighthouse that is currently constructed in Aarhus. Overall, looks like you were too concerned with unhappiness and invested too much in that area neglecting science and economy. It's better ally CS at this point and building up infrastructure instead. City placement is sub optimal as well. Have you spawned NE from your current location? Should have stayed there to have access to 2 fish.

    This game is still very winnable, but you need to focus. You've been a little all over the place. A little religion, a little wonders, a little war - it's hard to win domination this way. Build up your science and improve economy, in the meanwhile liberate CS Mongolia has captured and trim Genghis down.

    As for AI is filling the space, Akkad is second Babylonian city. You can hardly call it a small crappy one. And Helsinki can be razed you your way wherever... ;) Anyways, both Babylon and Sweden are not a threat till the rest of the game. The point in not completely destroying them is that doing so will cause severe diplo penalty (just like promising not to declare war when your troops stay close to rival's borders and then breaking your promise does ;)) and you don't want to be dogpiled by several angry AI.
     
  18. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Agree. Getting Fertilizer when you don't even have Civil Service is a waste of scarce beakers. You have more urgent research needs, should take Rationalism with your next policy and shift your research focus from the =>Dynamite path (60+ turns to Dynamite at current tech rate) to Civil Service/Theology/Education ASAP. You also need to get your cities off production focus and back to growing. Again, Civil Service will help growth.

    On the domination front, you only have three capitals to go, and your main rival's capital (the Mongols--already at war with them) is right there for the picking once you catch up in tech--no need to wade through a bunch of Mongolian cities to take Old Sarai. Knocking them back should be your first priority, for all the reasons The Pilgrim highlights.

    Constantinople (Great Wall--ugh) and Gao will be a slog by land, but are vulnerable from the sea. So, once you get done with Education, consider pursuing the Compass=>Navigation path and aim for a fleet of frigates (build galleasses and upgrade) and privateers. You should also put your spy in other civs' capitals to steal techs you've skipped.

    Happy hunting!
     
  19. Whiterussian

    Whiterussian Warlord

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    Hey, great Help! Thanks a million!

    And i thought i was doing OK :)
    The thing with selling resources (which i only just learned from MadDjin Videos) is that no one could afford them. Or should i sell them for just 50-150gold? Seamd too cheap, and now i kind of forgot about them...
    Yes i did have a problem with my happiness, after i went for my iron citys. Meaning i kind of rushed into a war when i wasn't ready.
    I know my citys aren't connected. But that costs me money right? Never really unterstod how trade routes work. So usually i wait and build roads later, but never realy know when..
    Why is it so important to get Theology before Fertilizer?
    Colossus i only build because i really did not have anything better to do in this city. Which i guess is a bad sign right there.

    Sorry about the mixup of Mongolia and the Huns. I play at home and write in the office so can't reverence. but they are kind of the same come on ;)
     
  20. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    If a civ likes/is neutral to you they'll pay 45 gold per strategic resource(if they need it, if not they won't pay anything) and luxuries for 240 gold. After the patch the AI tends to spend money a lot more, so you may have to settle for taking some gold per turn instead(which won't add up quite to 240 because of the way AI handles GPT).

    The point about Fertilizer was that you went way way too far down the bottom of the tech tree while neglecting your beakers via Education.

    And yes, there is ALWAYS something useful your capital can be building. Another archer, another worker, something.
     

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