Need More Information... LEADERS

[Thorburne]

We have definitely learned a lot about Civ V in the past few weeks... but there is so much more left to learn about as well. While many of the things we have learned still have holes of knowledge that need to be filled (like the "attitudes" of the rest of the City-States, for example), I am referring mostly to full elements which little has been detailed. Modding is one of those elements! But there have been plenty of threads (and bloody arguments) over this topic. Plus, information is [supposed to be] coming soon from Firaxis on this aspect. The topic of this thread is more about the...

Leaders
Much of the concentration has been on Civilizations and how they break down, as well as the individual units and such. However, little has been detailed specifically about the leaders. Sure, we get fully animated "meeting rooms" and they speak their native tongue... but, beyond that, there is little information about them. Some would argue that it doesn't matter, I am sure. Afterall, the "leader traits" have been removed and replaced by Civ specific "abilities". But that doesn't mean that the Leaders are totally pointless. If you have forgotten, let me remind you from bite's Civ5 Confirmed Features and Versions thread:

Each leader has a personality made from a combination of several different 'flavours' along a ten point scale, each game the impact that a certain flavour has over this civ can be +/- two points , allowing for a different experience each game. For example Russia may have a score of 8 for their expansion flavour but at the start of the game the actual score could be any where from 6 to 10.

So, what are these flavours? Only a couple examples have been given that I have seen, but I would like to know more.

The 25 flavours are grouped into several categories including Wide Strategy, Military preferences, Recon, Naval recon, Naval growth, Expansion, Growth, Development preferences

I am a little confused about this statement... It appears that the "25 flavours" are divided into the eight categories (maybe more) listed above?!? Or am I just misreading it? Some of those I could see as categories (like Wide Strategy, Military Preferences) but others seem like they could be the actual flavours (Recon, Naval recon, Naval Growth, Expansion, Growth, Development). I would love to learn more about this aspect... particularly what the 25 flavours... (ahh, who am I kidding... I am American) flavors are and the categories they fall under. It would be helpful to learn what some of the values are for the leaders in (at least some of) these flavors!

Did I miss this information (as Bite and Arioch appeared to have as well)? When will we learn more? Inquiring minds... (ahh, you know the rest)!

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If I recall correctly, each leader has certain tendencies which randomly assigned a magnitude. The combination and strengths of these tendencies leads to the AI's tactical, national, and global strategies for that civ.

For instance, in one game Monte could be a little aggressive, in the next he could be attacking everything he meets.

 

[Polobo]

The problem with the personality flavors is that it requires a developer to provide info since it cannot be gleaned simply from playing the game as that info is hidden.

 

[Charybdis]

The problem with the personality flavors is that it requires a developer to provide info since it cannot be gleaned simply from playing the game as that info is hidden.

While I doubt it'll be in any manual outside of a broad summary of:

The English have a passion for the high seas

or

Catherine seeks to expand Russia quickly

to mildly describe certain aspects, it will be possible to get the info from the game files since the idea that a civ leader wouldn't be moddable to that degree would be silly.

It'll be on site in a couple of days I imagine.

 

[Ahriman]

Flavors are AI personalities, similar to the type of things that are in the Civ4 LeaderheadInfos XML file.
http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php/Civ4LeaderHeadInfos

They're not going to be publicizing these, they're parameter values.

Like it would have been weird for them to say that in Civ4, Monty has a high value of iMaxWarRand, and that Izzy has a high value of iSameReligionAttitudeChangeLimit.

 

[Thorburne]

Flavors are AI personalities, similar to the type of things that are in the Civ4 LeaderheadInfos XML file.
http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php/Civ4LeaderHeadInfos

They're not going to be publicizing these, they're parameter values.

Like it would have been weird for them to say that in Civ4, Monty has a high value of iMaxWarRand, and that Izzy has a high value of iSameReligionAttitudeChangeLimit.

From what it sounds, these flavors are a bit different from the examples that you mentioned in Civ IV. While I agree, to an extent, that they will not likely publish the specifics, these still seem more specific and descriptive than "MaxWarRand" and "SameReligionAttitudeChangeLimit". The latter are definitely "Under-the-hood" elements! Whereas flavors I view more as the ornamentation (stripes, hood ornies, hub caps, etc.). They give the leaders their, err, Flavor! As I said, they may not give all of the specifics (and I am sure that they can be pulled from the files/editors), but Firaxis should give some more info about them. Afterall, they mentioned them to begin with.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I expect to see traits like modern leaders have. Some are stubborn. Some are treacherous. Some can be flattered. Some can be bribed. Some will rattle their sabers, but lose their nerve. Some are quite ambitious. Some are pacifists. And the AI will randomly choose a magnitude for the level of influence these traits have for each leader in each game and use it to stew up a strategy for each leader to use to try to win.

 

[Ahriman]

Some are stubborn. Some are treacherous. Some can be flattered. Some can be bribed. Some will rattle their sabers, but lose their nerve. Some are quite ambitious. Some are pacifists.

And all of these can be represented with under the hood parameters.

In fact, you can represent nearly all of them with Civ4 LeaderHeadInfos parameter values.

If you want a treacherous personality, then set extremely high threshold values for refusing to declare war (ie so even being a good friend won't stop them from backstabbing you.

If you want a saber-rattler, give a high tendency to make demands (DemandTributeAttitudeThreshold) but a low tendency to go to war.

If you want a mercenary AI that can be bought into wars, have a low value for DeclareWarRefuseAttitudeThreshold and a high value for DeclareWarThemRefuseAttitudeThreshold.

And so forth.

And use tech flavors. So for example, some techs have maritime flavor, others a cavalry flavor, others an infantry flavor. Then you can make England favor the former, Mongols the next, and France and Rome the last. America can have an industrial and commercial flavor, which makes them more likely to get these techs than the military ones.

My point is, *any* personality flavor, at the end of the day, is going to be determined by under the hood AI parameter values.

Thorburne, I note you don't give a single of example of what you consider to be a shiny "flavor" that couldn't be handled through these kinds of parameter values.
What exactly is it that you expect them to tell you?

 

[Louis XXIV]

From what it sounds, these flavors are a bit different from the examples that you mentioned in Civ IV. While I agree, to an extent, that they will not likely publish the specifics, these still seem more specific and descriptive than "MaxWarRand" and "SameReligionAttitudeChangeLimit". The latter are definitely "Under-the-hood" elements! Whereas flavors I view more as the ornamentation (stripes, hood ornies, hub caps, etc.). They give the leaders their, err, Flavor! As I said, they may not give all of the specifics (and I am sure that they can be pulled from the files/editors), but Firaxis should give some more info about them. Afterall, they mentioned them to begin with.

Well, the flavors seem described as AI tendencies, which means they are value settings. Every behavior category would be listed and then a value is given about how likely they are to do that behavior. There is some randomization, but it's limited (if warfare is one category, Ghandi would default as a 3, but could be anywhere from 1-5).

 

[Thorburne]

Thorburne, I note you don't give a single of example of what you consider to be a shiny "flavor" that couldn't be handled through these kinds of parameter values.
What exactly is it that you expect them to tell you?

The examples are in the first post, referring to the "Naval Growth", "Expansion", etc. These are details that they have mentioned earlier, but have not talked much about since. I am referring to the traits that each leader will have a set value (but may be 1 or two off in either direction for each game to shake up predictability). I want a full idea of what these are going to be.

 

[bjbrains]

I think we'll have to see the game code before we can see what all the values are (Although I expect the Civ 5 AI to be more complexly coded than Civ 4's simple XML percentages). We'll be able to get a decent idea of leaders just from their descriptions, we already know that Elizabeth likes Naval dominance, Catherine likes to sacrifice development in favor of rapid expansion, Ghandi wants to build large cities, Napoleon wants to conquer his neighbors (but likes culture as a backup flavor), and Askia wants to rule the world (according to Azazzell).

 

[MajorDisaster84]

I may be mistaken, but I think it came out at one point (in a podcast perhaps) that each leader had a range of values for the 25 different traits. The range was fixed, but the actual precise value could vary from game to game. I remember Napoleon being used as an example, where they said he had an aggression trait range of 6-10, but that in each game the precise value could change, making him more or less aggressive in each game. He'll still be more aggressive than some leader with a lower range, but even when compared to himself, his level might vary from game to game.

Now I just wish I could find where they mentioned that.

 

[Thorburne]

I may be mistaken, but I think it came out at one point (in a podcast perhaps) that each leader had a range of values for the 25 different traits. The range was fixed, but the actual precise value could vary from game to game. I remember Napoleon being used as an example, where they said he had an aggression trait range of 6-10, but that in each game the precise value could change, making him more or less aggressive in each game. He'll still be more aggressive than some leader with a lower range, but even when compared to himself, his level might vary from game to game.

Now I just wish I could find where they mentioned that.

That is correct... and what I am referring to. In the example you gave, Napolean's "Aggression" trait would be 8, but when a game is started, it could be within the range you mentioned (+ or - 2 points). What I want to know is what all those traits are?!? I can live with getting the values when the game is released, but, for a project I am working on, it would be helpful to know those traits ahead of time. I wonder if we will be able to get this info (and just about anything else we want to know) from the demo?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I doubt it's going to be blatently stated even in the civilopedia. You'll probably have to look through the game files to find them.

 

[Thorburne]

I doubt it's going to be blatently stated even in the civilopedia. You'll probably have to look through the game files to find them.

That is what I mean. I am assuming that the demo will have the same files that the main game has. If that is the case, we should be able to get whatever information out of them that we can, including this...