Need Warmonger Advice

[WarPhalange]

Hey all, I'm a long-time lurker. I just recently stepped it up to Warlord and have won 2 games so far as the Dutch guy (Dutchy McDutchyson I believe), but they've both been space race victories with no wars on my end. In fact, I've never won anything but space race or time victories. I want to start being a warmonger, but I've been having troubles with that. Whenever I've fought wars in the past, the way I'd do it was I'd wait until I wait until I had vastly superior units and just storm the other guy.

However, I see people praising Praetorians and Immortals here. So I gave that a go. I did OK with Praetorians, but had to stop short of eliminating Churchill because my economy was just going down the drain. Immortals were another story, though. I defeated Dutch Guy this time, but since it was so early in the game, he only had 2 cities up and only one of them was worth taking. I then moved on to Shaka, but by the time my units got there, he had Swordsmen and his UU kicking my ass left and right.

So I guess my questions are, when is it appropriate to start a war? Too early and you don't get much from conquering the other guy. Too late and your units (especially early UU) are obsolete.

Secondly, what's a good tech build for a warmonger? For Praetorians I went for iron ASAP, but then was stumped. Do I go for siege units? Keep teching for better units in general? Or do I cut back and go for economy?

Lastly, how do I fight a war? I usually just go straight for cities, but it's really hard to capture them when the city defense adds to the unit's strength. It's especially hard before I get any siege units. Destroying improvements also seems like a waste of time if I'm just going to have to build them myself later anyway, but I do see how cutting off something like iron to prevent reinforcements would be useful.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

What difficulty is this?

Usually you tech to the wheel + your military unit ( BW / AH / HBR ) + BW for chops then go for writing. Though not necessarily in that order.

With Praets you shouldn't need seige if you get them around 1500 BC or earlier.

You go for cities when you have around 2 x the defenders ( or more depending on exact defense and strength of units ).

 

[WarPhalange]

This is on Warlord right now, but I guess a strategy that works on a higher difficulty would work on Warlord too, right?

 

[MarigoldRan]

Do you know about slavery and chop? These techniques will allow you to mass a large number of units quickly. You can war early, with anything, as long as you get enough of them. Praetorians and unique units just make it easier. At lower levels, there's little reason to war except for the heck of it. But at higher levels, you have to war early most of the time in large part to keep the comps (especially neighbors) from running away with the game.

To answer your questions:

1. As long as your units aren't on strike, my opinion is that your economy is doing fine. 0% research? Bah, who cares. Get the Pyramids (you'll need Masonry), get Representation, go Caste System and/or build a couple of libraries here and there and get a few science specialists, and you're teching just fine. At lower levels, this should be easy to do. Once your cities recuperate, you've won because you'll have more cities AND a faster tech rate than the comp.

2. Immortals work UNTIL swordsman or spears. You used the immortals fine. They took out one or two civs near you, and that's what they're supposed to do. To take on swords, you'll need the Horse Archers or the Carthaginian UU, the Numidian.

3. For warmongerers, get Alphabet early. Then you can trade for techs and catch-up. At levels, below Monarch, however, I don't know how effective that is because the computers might not have anything to trade. But still, if you have Alphabet, and the comps don't, you're doing fine on the tech front.

4. Get Currency if you have a lot of cities. That and Code of Laws. That's another reason why Alphabet is important. The+1 trade routes from currency, and the Caste System from CoL can keep your economy afloat.

5. The trick to warring is to have more shi- than the opponent. That's it. It's as simple as that. Once again, learn about slavery and chopping. Because that allows you to get more shi- early.

EDIT: Also, you know about the warrior rush, right? At lower levels, this is devastatingly effective. Build a city, then build like five warriors and attack the nearest computer. You'll take it.

EDIT 2: Archers giving you a problem? Get six axemen and you'll win. Because a comp city is generally defended by at most three archers. Your first three axemen die. Your next three axemen take the city. It's as simple as that. Once again, you can war with anything, anytime, as long as you know how to get a lot of shi- fast.

 

[MarigoldRan]

What difficulty is this?

Usually you tech to the wheel + your military unit ( BW / AH / HBR ) + BW for chops then go for writing. Though not necessarily in that order.

With Praets you shouldn't need seige if you get them around 1500 BC or earlier.

You go for cities when you have around 2 x the defenders ( or more depending on exact defense and strength of units ).

He seems to be talking about below-Monarch. My advice is that pretty much anything works, as long as you can get a lot of shi-, fast.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Hey all, I'm a long-time lurker. I just recently stepped it up to Warlord and have won 2 games so far as the Dutch guy (Dutchy McDutchyson I believe), but they've both been space race victories with no wars on my end. In fact, I've never won anything but space race or time victories. I want to start being a warmonger, but I've been having troubles with that. Whenever I've fought wars in the past, the way I'd do it was I'd wait until I wait until I had vastly superior units and just storm the other guy.

That's still an option for the next couple levels - but it takes some practice to learn how to quickly build a dominating economy.

However, I see people praising Praetorians and Immortals here. So I gave that a go. I did OK with Praetorians, but had to stop short of eliminating Churchill because my economy was just going down the drain.

One hint - only keep the good cities.

Immortals were another story, though. I defeated Dutch Guy this time, but since it was so early in the game, he only had 2 cities up and only one of them was worth taking. I then moved on to Shaka, but by the time my units got there, he had Swordsmen and his UU kicking my ass left and right.

Yeah, taking Immortals into the teeth of super spears is unlucky.

So I guess my questions are, when is it appropriate to start a war? Too early and you don't get much from conquering the other guy. Too late and your units (especially early UU) are obsolete.

Early enough, and the much you get from conquering the other guy is a capital city, which is very strong.

Too late, and you smother him in catapults.

Secondly, what's a good tech build for a warmonger? For Praetorians I went for iron ASAP, but then was stumped. Do I go for siege units? Keep teching for better units in general? Or do I cut back and go for economy?

There are two simple ways to approach early warfare.

One is to rush. You tech your food, you tech Bronze Working and Animal Husbandry to find out where the resources are, you settle a city to acquire the resource if necessary, or to get more production if not, and then you train a stack of 10 or so units and go capture a capital.

(Chariots are faster/Axes are stronger)

The other is to use catapults. You tech your food, you tech Bronze Working and Animal Husbandry to find strong units. You settle a few cities. You tech your economy (pottery, writing). You start training attacking units. You tech Construction.
You start training catapults.

You add your attacking units and your catapults into one big pile, then attack enemy cities leading with your catapults. In the mean time - you build more catapults.

A lot of catapults are going to die along the way; that's what they are for. Your attacking pieces are responsible for killing whatever is left after the catapults are done ruining things.

Consequently, your attacking pieces stay alive a long time, gaining XP, while the steady stream of catapults continue to apply the hurt.

 

[WarPhalange]

Great, my best game to date and De Gaulle wins a diplomatic victory via the Apostolic Palace. That came out of nowhere, too. I took out Wang Kon very early and had half the continent to myself while the other 5 civs shared the other half.

I feel cheated.

EDIT: I guess I should give more details to the game. I started with Julius again, but there was no iron in sight. I didn't get access to it until I was almost ready to research gunpowder. It popped up in a few places, but it was near deserts, so screw that. I took out WK with axe men (he only had 2 cities) when I realized I was sitting on copper and started to rush it. My plan was to completely dominate technologically until I got some really powerful units. I'd then go and mop the floor with everyone else.

Is there an auto-save function in the game or something? I'd REALLY like to go back and finish that game the proper way (read: the way where I end up winning ).

It's funny, though. I was having huge difficulty beating Warlord until I finally realized how resources and trading really works. I thought 2 silver would just give 2 happiness. Game changed completely once I realized that's not how it works.

 

[yatta77]

Is there an auto-save function in the game or something?

Desk -> Docs -> MyGames -> BtS -> Saves -> Single -> Auto

Btw, Desk -> Docs -> MyGames -> BtS -> ScreenShots
is where your ScreenShots are. They might be useful.
To take a ScreenShot hit "Print" key on your K-board.

Greetings.
yatta.

 

[DrDragun]

If you play on slower game speeds like Epic, it favors warmongering more. Your units have more time to cross the map without becoming obsolete. Also units build faster relative to buildings, and in a war it's harder for the defender to spam units to wear you down if you invaded with a much larger army.

For a good Chariot/Immortal rush you just need a couple of decent cities and learn to use Slavery/Chopping like MarigoldRan said. Most games you might perform this rush with your first 2-4 cities. You should have at least 3-4 workers in this case and improve all your cities resource tiles so that they are decently productive, then crank out nothing but Immortals while building some roads between cities and where you want to attack. Your first couple of immortals can attack nearby barbarians to get some experience, maybe train a medic, and go attack!

Your money is going to crash like you said if you pick up 12 cities in this way. So it's important even though your building queues are in "total war" mode making all Immortals, your workers should be sneaking in a cottage here and there and preparing to save yourself from economic disaster. It's really important to spread your workers out after a conquest. At least get 2-3 tiles improved per city and don't leave your new ones neglected for 30 turns while you keep working on your first 2 cities. Also get Alphabet or Currency quickly so you can directly produce science/money in your cities to make up for a low science slider. It might be best to just rush conquer your whole continent, so that way you can safely disband most of your army to reduce maintenance cost. In any case, remember running the science slider at 20% for 12 cities is almost as good as 60% for 5 cities, at least thats what I tell myself =\.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Desk -> Docs -> MyGames -> BtS -> Saves -> Single -> Auto

Desk -> Docs -> MyGames -> BtS -> CivilizationIV.ini has some useful settings in it. Disk space isn't hard to come by, so I ask the game to save itself every turn.

; The maximum number of autosaves kept in the directory before being deleted.
MaxAutoSaves = 500

; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 1

A word of caution - you can go back and start playing again from any intermediate point - new saves will overwrite the old ones, but the saves from your other turns will be left untouched.

BUT - if you jump back to the AutoSave_Initial_BC4000, the game will erase all of your autosaves. It will do the same thing if you start a new game.

 

[misterfilmgeek]

Great, my best game to date and De Gaulle wins a diplomatic victory via the Apostolic Palace. That came out of nowhere, too. I took out Wang Kon very early and had half the continent to myself while the other 5 civs shared the other half.

I feel cheated.

Obviously, this does happen, so you should prepare for it. When you see the AP built, find out where it is, who built it, and if they have good enough relations to win with a vote. If so, go take that city. This should be relatively easy at lower levels.

EDIT: I guess I should give more details to the game. I started with Julius again, but there was no iron in sight. I didn't get access to it until I was almost ready to research gunpowder. It popped up in a few places, but it was near deserts, so screw that. I took out WK with axe men (he only had 2 cities) when I realized I was sitting on copper and started to rush it. My plan was to completely dominate technologically until I got some really powerful units. I'd then go and mop the floor with everyone else.

If you don't have Iron you will likely have Horses, so you can use Horse Archers in addition to Axes. You'll have to tech HBR, but (again) at lower levels, you should have time to do this. Also, settling some crappy city get Iron early (as long as it's not 15 tiles away and will wreck your economy with maintenance costs) may be worth it. A close city doesn't need much to pay for itself, so if you can get a cottage up (or a similar gold-producing tile, or your capital is a gold-making machine), go for it, especially if it will deny an opponent that Iron.

Is there an auto-save function in the game or something? I'd REALLY like to go back and finish that game the proper way (read: the way where I end up winning ).

I would advise against this simply because to get better and move up in difficulty (if this is a goal) you need to see more maps and opponents and how they interact. If you do replay it, things will go down differently between your opponents, so it may not be a matter of stopping the AP win.

 

[misterfilmgeek]

Hey all, I'm a long-time lurker. I just recently stepped it up to Warlord and have won 2 games so far as the Dutch guy (Dutchy McDutchyson I believe)

If he's Dutch, it would be "Dutchy van Dutchyson".

 

[WarPhalange]

I would advise against this simply because to get better and move up in difficulty (if this is a goal) you need to see more maps and opponents and how they interact. If you do replay it, things will go down differently between your opponents, so it may not be a matter of stopping the AP win.

I was hoping to just start up where I left off, but I guess you're right. At that point, the game was mine.

I do replay bad wars sometimes, though, until I get it right. Just so I know what I should have done in that situation.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I did use slavery a lot that game. I think that helped a lot. I usually just ignored slavery because it seemed pointless. I'm learning a LOT lately.

 

[misterfilmgeek]

I do replay bad wars sometimes, though, until I get it right. Just so I know what I should have done in that situation.

That is absolutely fine, and something I do from time to time, although I abandon the game after the war and consider it lost. Just replaying the same start though when you've seen the whole map is much less useful, in my opinion.

 

[oldskald]

Some more general military advice;

1) Intel. Without good intel you could be sticking your head in a noose by DoW-ing. You can get intel a number of ways, and it can be strategic (through the foreign advisor); who is happy with who (and therefore might support), who is upset with who (and could be bribed to be a war ally), and who is in whose religion (can be a powerful factor with certain leaders). Intel can also be more tactical through scouting and spying; what kind of units has your target got, and where are they. This information can be very powerful, and a lack of this kind of info can be terminal.

2) War Aims. Before you begin, have at least an idea of how you want to end. Know what you want to achieve, and what you are prepared to compromise on in the event of the situation changing and a peace becoming necessary.

3) Preparation. As much as possible build for a 3:1 advantage, and aim to fight as fast as possible before war weariness and increased economic costs become a burden. Be prepared to cease fire for a time if you can reinforce faster than your opponent. Also, check whether your enemy is prepared to vassalize (if so, take it before another civ does).

4) Pick on the weak. Isolate them, and keep in with other opponents via trade, gifts and/or religion. Don't attack a target which appears to be in a bloc.

5) Attack from more than one direction if you have the strength to do so (meaning that each attacking force is capable of defending itself on its own). This can confuse the AI's response.

6) Raze. Most AI cities are poorly placed. You may decide to keep them, but you may be able to better place a city one or two squares away. And in the meantime you won't be paying maintenance costs. AI capitals, OTOH, are usually pretty well placed, and often have a good infrastructure already in place. They are mostly worth keeping.

7) Win the peace. Winning the war is one thing, but if you have smashed your economy to do so it was a pointless exercise. Courthouses are your friends here, particularly if your war is inter-continental (very expensive in maintenance costs if you are conquering land, rather than eliminating a civ and then withdrawing). If you don't have any interest in taking land then don't forget to pillage all those improvements before you withdraw. The extra cash is always nice.

8) However you decide to fight, always take a Medic.

There's also lots and lots of interesting advice in the War Academy.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Some more general military advice;

1) Intel. Without good intel you could be sticking your head in a noose by DoW-ing. You can get intel a number of ways, and it can be strategic (through the foreign advisor); who is happy with who (and therefore might support), who is upset with who (and could be bribed to be a war ally), and who is in whose religion (can be a powerful factor with certain leaders). Intel can also be more tactical through scouting and spying; what kind of units has your target got, and where are they. This information can be very powerful, and a lack of this kind of info can be terminal.

2) War Aims. Before you begin, have at least an idea of how you want to end. Know what you want to achieve, and what you are prepared to compromise on in the event of the situation changing and a peace becoming necessary.

3) Preparation. As much as possible build for a 3:1 advantage, and aim to fight as fast as possible before war weariness and increased economic costs become a burden. Be prepared to cease fire for a time if you can reinforce faster than your opponent. Also, check whether your enemy is prepared to vassalize (if so, take it before another civ does).

4) Pick on the weak. Isolate them, and keep in with other opponents via trade, gifts and/or religion. Don't attack a target which appears to be in a bloc.

5) Attack from more than one direction if you have the strength to do so (meaning that each attacking force is capable of defending itself on its own). This can confuse the AI's response.

6) Raze. Most AI cities are poorly placed. You may decide to keep them, but you may be able to better place a city one or two squares away. And in the meantime you won't be paying maintenance costs. AI capitals, OTOH, are usually pretty well placed, and often have a good infrastructure already in place. They are mostly worth keeping.

7) Win the peace. Winning the war is one thing, but if you have smashed your economy to do so it was a pointless exercise. Courthouses are your friends here, particularly if your war is inter-continental (very expensive in maintenance costs if you are conquering land, rather than eliminating a civ and then withdrawing). If you don't have any interest in taking land then don't forget to pillage all those improvements before you withdraw. The extra cash is always nice.

8) However you decide to fight, always take a Medic.

There's also lots and lots of interesting advice in the War Academy.

4. Pick on the MILITARILY weak. Gandhi, for example, is almost always strong in everything except military. Also, don't vassalize someone that EVERYONE ELSE HATES.

6. Don't raze unless it's obviously a crap city or if you're nearing strike. Most AI cities are "pretty good." Perfectionism can hurt your game, especially at the higher stages.

7. Wars are worthwhile even if you smash your economy. Tech is just one part of the game. You can always make up for less tech with more production. Cavalry beats infantry, if you have enough of them.

9. The AI almost always has a "build-up" phase where they're not making military units. Catch them at that time.

10. Play on Epic or Marathon. Much more suited for the war-types.

 

[oldskald]

6. Don't raze unless it's obviously a crap city or if you're nearing strike. Most AI cities are "pretty good." Perfectionism can hurt your game, especially at the higher stages.

7. Wars are worthwhile even if you smash your economy. Tech is just one part of the game. You can always make up for less tech with more production. Cavalry beats infantry, if you have enough of them.

I should have been clearer, but what I mean by "smash your economy" is putting an economy into a situation of "nearing strike".