Needs some advice for cultural and religous victories

[rpger001]

Hello,

I have learned quite a bit on this thread and thank the community for that. I am still stuck on a few things that I would like to improve on as I move up difficulty levels. Currently, I am playing on Emperor but want to move up.

Science and Domination are pretty easy and straight forward. Where I have issues is on cultural and religious. I have had victories in each type but they relied on warmongering and basically just having more cities. My take from reading through this forum is that I should be able to achieve these victory types without making them look like domination wins. Specially...

-- What is the right balance between getting theater/holy sites up early vs commerce, science and production?

-- How much expansion should I pursue? I read a post here, from Victoria, which indicated that spending the time on early extra cities (beyond about 9-10) may actually slow down a cultural victory as it gives more time for the AI to build up their own tourism.

-- Are there specific Wonders I should be aiming for when going for religious?

-- Are there specific Wonders I should be aiming for when going for cultural? In the past, I have gone for Cristo. I know Eiffel should probably be on my list as well.


I have other concerns such as if I am really using the right civic cards but will leave that for another time as I feel the above questions are more basic building blocks.

Thanks in advance for any advice anyone can give me.

 

[myclan]

If you move up game difficulty, you need warmongering and you need more cities to win, because AI has incredible bonus. Without more cities than AI, without weaken AI by warmongering, it is just difficult to acheive a victory.

About religous victory: 1.allied with Yerevan 2.Let ai apostles die before your apostles instead of spreading the religion with your apostles sometimes will be more efficient

About cultural victory: I think it is impossible without a large territory, unless your are very lucky to allied of kandy and find all the natural wonder very soon

 

[Siptah]

Hagia Sophia is good for a religious victory, since it gives +1 spread to all units and the AI often doesn't build it that fast.

Mont St. Michel is good for a cultural victory, when you happen to have a religion as well. Just suicide some of your apostles and cash in the the nice relics. If you choose the triple yield from relics belief this is super strong.

 

[DouLou]

If you move up game difficulty, you need warmongering and you need more cities to win, because AI has incredible bonus. Without more cities than AI, without weaken AI by warmongering, it is just difficult to acheive a victory.

About religous victory: 1.allied with Yerevan 2.Let ai apostles die before your apostles instead of spreading the religion with your apostles sometimes will be more efficient

About cultural victory: I think it is impossible without a large territory, unless your are very lucky to allied of kandy and find all the natural wonder very soon

Im not sure of your experience but I find 7-8 cities is fine on Immortal (one exception at the end).

Basically i go for comm district into theatre district then prioritize theatre building (Greece however can beelin acro since its so cheap and gives a great early game adjacent boost)

Having 7-8 cities and early amphis can get your amphis full by t120 or earlier. Then its a good time to pick up printing and beeline archaeologists. Once you have full archeologist museums at hopefully pre t170 you should have simultaneously got your science districts up and start running science projects if needed to hit a t200ish computers.

At this point you have two options depending on ai culture... click next turn until you win cause your 8 cities will get you 50 tourism each with all buildings full plus computers is 800 tourism. Then your trade routes with social policies and great merchants will give you victory.

Ive only had one game with such a runaway that i need to lay down a few coastal cities to give me some seaside resorts but tbh without christ and eiffel tower they helped a bit but werent really needed.

Maybe ive not come across a true runaway but i believe it was 400 tourists at t250ish that won me my "hardest" game.

 

[rpger001]

Thanks everyone for the comments!

DouLou, thanks for the details in your post. This is exactly the type of advice I was hoping for.

I tend to get nervous when I am way behind in tech but I see from your post that I really have some more time than I thought to build out my culture district and buildings before trying to catch up a bit on tech.

 

[stormerne]

Something not yet mentioned... If you take the advice of @Victoria and @DouLou and limit the number of cities, then I would humbly suggest you play as Mvemba a Nzinga for a cultural victory. He's a culture and tourism monster, while still racking up good science to allow you to defend yourself, and with him you can grow your cities very tall. At the very least by choosing Kongo you will be removing one of your strongest opponents if you're going for a cultural victory.

 

[Victoria]

Mvemba is a great powerhouse and normally for me it's him or Gorgo that are the runaways.
I have had a deity game where 1500 tourism was required.
Mvemba is in fact nastier with more cities because of his ability to cripple everyone else from getting great writers and if you want to use them all, more cities are needed, but denial by itself is a strong strategy and a Mvemba main weapon.

For a culture victory it's mainly about 3 things. Getting great writers, archaeology and seaside resorts. The more you concentrate on getting these and ignore other things the faster you can win, that is the main key. Screw great wonders, push projects instead.
The culture side is easy enough and it's a straight run up there unless you need meritocracy on the way.

Once I get archaeologists I know my culture is going to be fine so I take the pedal off culture and onto science and if I am honest I thrash science harder than culture. Whether you need to beeline Eiffel first is a tricky one because it's in a different part of the tech tree, going strong on resorts really needs good science investment earlier..

Regardless of anything else, the AI relies on getting writers and works for the culture spurt. If you do not get early writers then the AI will and it certainly can become a runaway where if you want to stop them or a long game occurring you have to face them head on. Culture is a snowball, to get good culture you need good culture, getting early writers gives HUGE culture gains and makes you more culture getting you more great writers. .... keys are amphitheaters and divine spark .... divine spare far outweighs oracle apart from very early and oracle is just too expensive. Peter is also great for this but bottom line for me is teddy, he is stronger with harder games, the advanced culture civ. hell he does not even have to bother with computers.

Gorgo' s ability to get to theatres fast and build them fast makes her strong early but her killing culture window is only of value for the first 50 turns. Pericles can be a culture monster mid game if you know how to play city states well but culture is less important then apart from defensively but certainly I have got 500 culture per turn off Peri. Mvemba does bully them both because of his great person pushing contest which includes scientists. Victoria does not match up but does seriously eat artefacts mid game, she needs to synergies with naval for grabbingbresort landspace so is a harder but more rewarding play and her ability midgame to beat up a culture runaway is a strong point. France and Qin have gimmicks that just do not match up but Hojo's adjacency played well gives him some strength, factories are just a little off the beaten track though. All in all Mvemba, Teddy, Peter and Gorgo are the top tier imo.

2 days ago I did a classic Gorgo 5 city T205 win on emperor, I wrote it up a bit in the tips and tricks Gorgo culture rush thread.

 

[myclan]

Im not sure of your experience but I find 7-8 cities is fine on Immortal (one exception at the end).

Basically i go for comm district into theatre district then prioritize theatre building (Greece however can beelin acro since its so cheap and gives a great early game adjacent boost)

Having 7-8 cities and early amphis can get your amphis full by t120 or earlier. Then its a good time to pick up printing and beeline archaeologists. Once you have full archeologist museums at hopefully pre t170 you should have simultaneously got your science districts up and start running science projects if needed to hit a t200ish computers.

At this point you have two options depending on ai culture... click next turn until you win cause your 8 cities will get you 50 tourism each with all buildings full plus computers is 800 tourism. Then your trade routes with social policies and great merchants will give you victory.

Ive only had one game with such a runaway that i need to lay down a few coastal cities to give me some seaside resorts but tbh without christ and eiffel tower they helped a bit but werent really needed.

Maybe ive not come across a true runaway but i believe it was 400 tourists at t250ish that won me my "hardest" game.

I agree 7~8 cities are almost enough on immortal but they have to be in nice spot, which means they should have fresh water/aqueduct so that they dont't need to wait for a neighbourhood to grow. And they should have enough forest/hill tile to build theater district(quite expensive actually). I don't think it is easy to get so many nice spot cities without a war, either you choose to rob cities from ai or your expanding anger the ai and lead to a war.

AI usually advanced rapidls in era, making great writer cost rising rapidly. They also actively compete to get a GW. If your cities are not so good that need 20+ turn to build the theater district+amphitheater, I will choose to just ignore them in early game while focos more on science/production to get artifact/computer/seaside resort faster.

 

[Victoria]

I will choose to just ignore them in early game

This is one area everyone must be fully aware of as it is very important.

Monument = 2 culture
2 great works of writing = 8 culture

The AI is very good at getting great writers and useless at artifacts.

If you do not get great writers yourself early the AI gets them instead... this means their domestic culture (defense against you) is much higher.

This is why Gorgo, Mvemba, and Peter are tier 1 culture hogs.... they eat great writers for breakfast.

Try playing a game where you get lots of great writers early, just concentrate on that... and then at T150 have a look at their culture in comparison to a normal game you play.

You will find you can finish a game 50-100 turns faster by competing for great writers

I played another Gorgo yesterday with 15 cities and finished in T211. More cities does not necessarily mean you will finish earlier... The game before with 5 cities I finished in T205. A lot does depend on circumstance and they were quite different games. I would say 6-8 cities is a good spot to be in.

 

[myclan]

This is one area everyone must be fully aware of as it is very important.

Monument = 2 culture
2 great works of writing = 8 culture

The AI is very good at getting great writers and useless at artifacts.

If you do not get great writers yourself early the AI gets them instead... this means their domestic culture (defense against you) is much higher.

This is why Gorgo, Mvemba, and Peter are tier 1 culture hogs.... they eat great writers for breakfast.

Try playing a game where you get lots of great writers early, just concentrate on that... and then at T150 have a look at their culture in comparison to a normal game you play.

You will find you can finish a game 50-100 turns faster by competing for great writers

I played another Gorgo yesterday with 15 cities and finished in T211. More cities does not necessarily mean you will finish earlier... The game before with 5 cities I finished in T205. A lot does depend on circumstance and they were quite different games. I would say 6-8 cities is a good spot to be in.

I'm curious about that in a normal game, if you are concentrating in GW, how many cities you have, how many GWpt you have when the world enter medieval/renaissance age, and how many GW you finally get when the world enter renaissance/industrial age. I have never tried to build them a lot early because it cost me too much while don't give enough. I understand you are competing for GW not mainly for strengthen yourself but for weaken AI in culture. This may be the difference in our play style. If I found an AI runs away in culture, I will either choose other type of victory condition on just wipe it out of the map.

 

[Victoria]

Ummm, nope, with printing, 16 tourism as well. It is possible to win early with great writers, just not easily on high levels, more luck.

The number depend on effort, difficulty, cities.
I aim to have all my writer slots filled.
I will use the +2 great writer points early with say 3 theatres divine spark and projects you can happily fill up 10 cities. On Emperor I tend not to project too much, money becomes more key as you get near museums. Buy in museums if you have lots of cash but it's really the archaeologists at around 1300 gold you need to buy. The +2 culture from an empty museum is pittance against great writing and there is a natural lag between museums and archaeologists.
Buying in universities on the other hand I will do where I can

20 GPP per turn is where I am heading

I play for a 200 turn win, if someone is running away at T150'I will attempt an intervention rather than change VC. If I am going to miss T200 (quite a lot) but it's clear Inwill win, Indonnot bother finishing, I just see no point

 

[rpger001]

Hi Victoria,

You mentioned doing projects to fill up your amphitheaters...when to start projects is something I am not doing optimally. I tend to want to build out my districts and city center and I think that is holding me back.

Case in point, in a game now (only on Emperor) playing as Japan. Turn 133, I just finished expansion with 10 cites and another about to be founded thanks to a couple extra stolen settlers. Only 4 amphitheaters are up and only 1 is filled. Many of my cities are still new so will shift to projects in all four of the more mature cities.

 

[Victoria]

@rpger001 a great example where 10 cities has probably slowed down your development while 7-8 would have put you at T100 cleaner. 10 cities that late also means you will have missed some writers so may not fill all your writing slots.

The early culture rush also requires early printing for double tourism but only if going for an early victory... it's an advanced form.

May I suggest go straight for theatres if not doing so already... ignore craftsmanship and government. On the way you will get the double settler card early when you power out the settlers if not being agressive.

As soon as each city comes online set that theatre in place. Not necessarily finish straight away but setting keeps the price low.

For any victory getting settler out first is primary and developing worked land is next on the list. So you also need to do that once you can get 30% builders. Then get the theatres up and push projects until feudalism workers, then finish what land you have and go back to projects but also slip in commercial and campuses.... the projects you can probably skip if going for a T200 victory. It's really for getting for an early rush below T200.

If you had said T100 and 4 theatres I would have said well done... T133 means something is wrong.

 

[Greenlami]

Actually I find cultural victory quite easier than domincation or religion, but I maybe biased as I often obtain cultural even when I'm trying to win science or religion... XD (that also happened with previous civs, I just assume I'm more of a good strategist with resources than a great general XD)
Founding many cities early is always importan imho, but you have to make sure your pruduction stays high to complete districts soon, and that may not be optimal to any rush.
Anyway, all of Victoria's advices are true, archeologistshave been gamechangers for me. I don't usually focus on writers as I often play as a random civ and try to go as their characteristics take me, but I'll keep in mind especially at hig difficulties.

 

[EpicWestern]

Peaceful cultural win has been by far the most difficult victory type for me on deity. I don't think there's a single magic build, a lot depends on what city states you're near and what kind of adjacency bonuses you can get. You could spam either campuses or commercial districts, of course you want a theater district in every city, but its really important not to neglect science. You should be going for computers and radio as soon as you're *realistically* able. I don't want to say "beeline" because depending on the situation there's a chance you need to tech into musketmen or cannons just to defend yourself.

There are some smaller wonders like Apadana that might be useful but honestly other wonders are too expensive and come too late, and also have the risk of being superseded by another civ. Such is the case with Cristo, Broadway, Sydney Opera House, etc.. Eiffel Tower is part of a tech path that's a significantly from the radio/computers path, so again, too expensive and too late.

One mistake I made in some of my games was powering up too hard with builders/settlers and not getting the theater districts and amphitheaters down quickly enough. It definitely seems like you have to race other civs in getting writers fast, as opposed to just letting that happen and waiting for archaeologists to carry you. Still, depending on what civs you're up against, that can be very difficult and sometimes you don't really have a choice but to play into the late game. If that's the case you have to rely on your spies pillaging spaceports and stealing great works to carry you. It might be necessary to get a few extra cities, maybe even up to 14.

 

[rpger001]

Thanks everyone for all the comments. I do find cultural victory to be a tough one as I do not want it to look like a domination win. Alas, my current game which is now somewhere in the mid 200s turns, is shaping up to be a "cultural" win via conquest. All of my museums are full (sadly could not theme two of them and the only civ with artifacts will not trade any). I have not planted any resorts as I do not have appropriate land but maybe if I get Eiffel which is currently building.

Teddy is the run away civ on the other continent with sky high science and cultural output.

My next steps are to hopefully complete Eiffel and plant a couple resorts. There is at least one spot where I could settle a new city to plant resorts around but I also need to plant an oil well and/or a uranium mine (neither of which are currently within my boundaries). The latter resources are needed to support an invasion of the other continent where I expect to find corps/armies of far superior units.

At the end of the day, unless I am lucky with the spies which I have never been so far, I will end up either bombing his spaceports or, more likely, invading and converting his tourism output to mine.

Next time I will take more of the advice given in this thread and beeline as much as I can to theater districts so that I get them earlier. I would love to get a cultural win without resorting to gutting an opposing civ's capital in order to bring down their domestic tourism.

 

[Photi]

I have not planted any resorts as I do not have appropriate land but maybe if I get Eiffel which is currently building.

just to say in passing to you or anyone else, on those seaside resorts, remember that woods give +1 appeal to adjacent tiles, and mines give -1 appeal. jungle also i think give negative appeal. taking down mines and planting trees in their place can be a good way to get land suitable for Seaside Resorts. i also reclaim farmland to plant trees. Some Civs' Unique Improvement will increase appeal to adjacent tiles (Persia, France)

 

[Victoria]

100% to Photi....

A tile needs +4 appeal for a resort and starts with 0

each side of water gives +1
each tree hex gives +1
Mountain +1
Rivers give +2

Mines -1 or 2 (depends on if its fixed, I think its still -2)
Marsh and jungle also -1

You may hesitate about getting rid of mines but its late game and you do not need them.

Every +1 becomes +2 for the resort, +4 with cristo.

So planting a tree is +4 tourism.... that's a lot for a tree.

So look at Eiffel as +4 per resort or +8 with Cristo

Eiffel just makes life easier and you do not need so many builders. It also helps A LOT with sand as you cannot plant trees in sand

Sometimes you can only get +3 in a tile but you can then add trees where a resort will go to get +4, build the resort then chop the trees, that still works, it just becomes a cheap nasty seaside resort for the rabble... even a resort at 2 appeal is +4 tourism... that's half a wonder unless you are france

 

[Photi]

i hadn't thought about chopping the trees after the resort is built, nice!