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Negotiations with KISS

Discussion in 'Team Doughnut' started by Robi D, Oct 11, 2005.

  1. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Let the games begin, KISS has answered our message, i have told them i'm available tomorrow (same time as with MIA), so that should be fun.
    hmmm...Maybe i should look at appointing some ambassadors.


     
  2. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

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    Good work!

    Good luck with the chat :).

    EDIT: of course, KISS cannot see us in their diplo screen until the save gets round to them. So they will not know what techs they can trade and the chat may be somewhat undirected from their side.

    I'm guessing that KISS is researching towards Monarchy. It's the logical thing to do for them, as they are religious, so they start with CB and they can easily switch between governments.
     
  3. vikingruler

    vikingruler King

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    You mentioned you might appoint ambassadors. I would be very eager to participate as one so If you decide to I'm willing.
     
  4. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Here is the chat log from KISS, i have taken out the chit chat parts to condense it a little, but all relavent negotiations are left as they are




     
  5. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    So there you have it, the deal is

    CoL + Philo FOR IW + WC + Myst + CB

    This goes way beyond anything MIA is offering. The will take place when they have writing which is three turns, which fit in well as it will take us the same time to research wheel.

    In my humble opinion i would say yes to this deal asap, as you can see they have agreed to it and its the best thing going by far.

    If you agree to just say yes below i can send a formal agreement to them tomorrow
     
  6. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Can we offer writing for their remaining beaker cost in cash or gpt, to speed the deal along?

    We get the better of the deal by a slim margin...

    Philo+CoL ~= 417
    IW + WC + Myst + CB ~= 450

    They have telegraphed that they will start immediately on Republic. If we decide to research HBR after Wheel, we should start thinking about what we'll need to give for Republic, or face the prospect of having to research it ourselves.
     
  7. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Or how about this:

    If we can give both KISS and MIA just CoL for half the techs each, then we keep the Philo monopoly and we don't let either one beat us to Republic.
     
  8. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    You make a valid point daveshack, however the problem is atm MIA, its been some 5 turns of negotiations and a deal hasn't been done. If fact atm they are split on whether to offer their completely one sided deal to us or accept our offer which is still in their favour, which means more than likely any deal for CoL could take another 5 turns to work out which just continues delay our research. Also if we just trade IW + WC with KISS, MIA doesn't have anything to offer us except CB. Where as with KISS we have come to an in principle agreement in one talk! So with the KISS deal, it just a matter of us putting pen to paper so to speak.

    Also if we do the deal with KISS we have 3 techs (Philo, CoL and Myst) that MIA don't and they have nothing to offer us in return, which gives us the upper hand in negotiations with them, since it can give us influence over what they research next.

    Next two comment the KISS team made during the talks kind of stick in my mind and they were;
    and
    This leads me to believe they would be happy to get into a tech partnership if they get the trade, so then if they were to start research on republic, i think we could come to an arrangement where we would research at the same time something like HB riding, Mason, Maths and Lit as quick as they do Rep. and do a trade with them this way.

    This would give us the upper hand because we would have an oppertunity to convince MIA to research one of those techs to swap for one of ours, meaning we could spend time on min research collecting gold while KISS do the Rep.

    In the end even if this means KISS ends up getting Rep before us, that isn't the worst thing, because
    1. They are the furthest away from us and on a different continent

    2. At the moment there sympathetic to us because they REALLY don't like TNT and are more likely to give us good trade deals in the short term, also if there was a team that would join us in the war with TNT it would be them.

    3. As mentioned above i think we could work out a trade deal where by they research Rep. while we do other techs to swap for it.


    Finally i can ask if they would be interested in doing a swap of writing for gold or even writing for wheel, so the next trade can occur sooner if all are agreeable.
     
  9. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

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    Interesting that both KISS and MIA claim to get writing in a few turns. Are they both researching it, or is their relationship not as bad as MIA claims?

    I would not read too much in their statement on TNT. They may be more inclined to support us than them because of clashes with Provo, but when push comes to shove they may simply act according to the strategic position. Showing sympathy is simply smart diplomacy...

    I don't really know how you got these numbers, but actually, the base costs are:
    Philo+Col = 6+10 = 16
    IW+WC+Myst+CB = 6+4+3+2 = 15

    On top of that, Philo and Col are tradeable, IW is not. WC and CB are not tradeable in practice as only TNT doesn't have it. Same may be true for Myst. Despite what MIA says, Philo and CoL are good techs as they lead to Republic. CB and Myst are fairly useless.
    One of the reasons KISS is friendly to us and is happy with this deal may be that they are getting the best part by a large margin. These people may pretend to be stupid, but they definitely are not....

    In summary, I am not too happy with this deal. I am not sure if we can afford to go back on it or try for a better one, we'll need some friends...
    Perhaps we can try once more to make a deal with MIA. It would be a lot better if we only had to give up CoL to get all 4.

    On timing: I would prefer not to stop researching, definitely not if no deal is set in stone yet. If this deal goes through, minimum delays require that they send WC+IW on the turn before they finish writing (when it's at 1 turn left). We can then return our techs, and they can accept the deal one turn later. If this deal goes through, we'll need to know when they get writing. It doesn't make much sense to make this deal if we have to halt research a few turns.

    BTW: Mas + HBR + Math + Lit = 4 + 5 + 8 + 10 = 27, Rep = 36, so not the same value.
     
  10. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

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    Forgot to cast my vote: I am not overexcited, but I think we should do this trade.

    On the one hand I agree with DS that we might be able to get more if we peddle CoL to two teams. Otoh, it might be fun to punish MIA a bit for their greed. Could lead to interesting team dynamics over there :)

    One more thing:

    we'll learn Wheel at the start of turn 49, if I counted correctly. Meaning we would like to have Warrior Code by then. This means the trading sequence should start on Kiss' turn 47, like this:

    Turn 47 KISS: send Warrior Code, Iron Working, Ceremonial to Doughnut.
    Turn 48 Doughnut: send Philo and CoL to KISS, accepted.
    Turn 48 KISS: accept this deal, and send Mysticism to Doughnut, accepted.

    This means KISS needs to have writing in turn 47, so that we can send them Philo and CoL. If they don't have it then, we should press them to send Warrior Code (accepted) anyway. Our research speed is high and we don't need the tech unless we get it early.
    This of course means they'll have to trust us a bit, but similarly we have to trust them to send Mysticism at the end of the sequence, so hopefully they'll appreciate the symmetry :).
    If really needed, we can perhaps make some arrangement with securities in gold.
     
  11. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Republic is 28 not 36. I agree that it isn't the deal of the centuary but given MIA offer, its fantastic and its already been sighned off by them, unlike MIA which is yet to decide.

    The other option which i forgot to add is, once the deal takes place, we can research HB riding and mason before switching back to republic, and end up not far behind because we can grow faster then them so we would be only a few turns behind them in getting it, also im not sure of this but does the research we have already done still count after switching? If thats the case than in this scenario, we could still get republic before them.

    As for there relationship between MIA and KISS, MIA alluded to the fact that it wasn't the best, but thats not to say that its terrible either. If MIA are getting writing from KISS then i can't find a tech they would be reseaching themselves that they would give to KISS of equal value, masonry would be the closest, but i dont think its likely.

    I am aware that KISS's friendlyness towards us is in a large part because we have what they want (a sling shot to Rep.) and small part because TNT isn't their favorite civ atm. But its an advantage we can use for now, they might not be interested in dealing with us after this, but like i said above we can still get Rep. shortly after they do and considering they are the furthest from us that impact will be minimal.

    Another aspect of the deal i like is when viewing it from the point of view of the other team. Neither MIA or TNT would be happy with us doing this deal. TNT obviously because they are already behind us in techs and us getting further ahead and getting our MW online in 8 turns is not good for them. Zyxy said they were still an average military power to us, which means the total attack and defence points are between 0.8 and 1.2 to ours. And in this equation attack point count as 1.5 to 1, so the likelyhood of them having more than 1 or 2 immortals is slim at best, considering we only have warriors and one spear.
    EDIT- i just rechecked the war acadamy page on the military advisor, hit point are also counted in the equation, here the link so you can check it our for yourselfs.
    http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/military_advisor.php

    MIA would hate the deal because at this point they have a tech advantage in some aspects, which would dissapear in the blink of an eye as they would be in a position of not being able to offer us one single tech whereas we would have 3 we could offer them. Another factor is that their is already a division of opinion in MIA about the 2 trade offers currently between us and them, which could lead to further division when they find out they lost a golden opertunity because they were too greedy. I mean we gave them an offer of CoL + Philo for only WC + wheel + IW in return. In any other circumstances they would not get an offer half as good as that one.

    This leaves KISS as the only team that will be ahead of us but their advantage would be small, and since they are the furthest away, we can make that advantage up easily before we meet then on a large scale. Also with there large tech lead of MIA, there eyes might become bigger than their bellies, and they might see that as an oppertunity to take out MIA. If thats the case than MIA and KISS lose the advantage of not having to pump out units and its back to a level playing field, as they will have to divert resources away for tech and expanding like we have had to.

    Sorry for rambling on, but this is my line of thinking atm and why i think this deal is in our interests to take.
     
  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Beakers are lost when switching, and we had about 55 invested (CA2).

    I'm in favor of the deal with KISS, unless MIA comes in with an offer that would let us not have to give KISS both Philo and CoL. If we could do that then we'd be back in the tech driver seat, with interest.
     
  13. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Received via PM

     
  14. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

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    Duhhh, you're right. I must have been sleeping still :blush:

    Like DS said, the beakers are lost for good. I don't think we'll outpace the Celts, at least not by much. They are agri too, and probably have a similar start as ours.
    A better option could be to sound them out about future trades, in particular involving Republic. I think we should go for Map Making (after HBR) rather than Masonry, it's a high value tech and monopoly. If KISS doesn't want to share Repu, we could still research it as second civ at reduced cost (720 instead of 840).

    Perhaps KISS gets it from MIA, and they give Mysticism and maybe some other stuff we cannot see in return :). Or it is possible that both teams are researching it, which could explain KISS suddenly getting Writing (if MIA learns it, then the beaker cost drops).

    My only problem is that I fear KISS the most...

    Oh, and please keep rambling :). The best way to get a sound team strategy is for people to post their ideas and rambles.
     
  15. vikingruler

    vikingruler King

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    I think we should take the deal. The techs offered will really help us in our war with TNT, as well as helping us succed in the game. mysticism and CB will give us the oracle and temples major cultural advantages. We also of course get a lot close to MWs.
     
  16. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    I've come up with this response. In the absence of any word from MIA or any ideas for how it can be improved i will send it in a hour from now


    Edit to text in bold
     
  17. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

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    I would prefer to do MapMaking instead of Mas + Math. It's the same value, but a better tech.

    EDIT: they would need the wheel before we can trade them HBR btw. So maybe Wheel+HBR+MapMaking+some value 6 tech (is that possible?) for republic?
     
  18. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    They have wheel.
    I chose HBR since we need it for MW's, masonry would give us walls and maths get us cataputs which all help us with the war effort.

    EDIT- But the proposal can always be changed if people think other paths would be better
    eg. HBR + MM + Lit is the same value

    EDIT 2- I made a change in the letter to reflect that other techs are possible not just HBR, Mas, Math, Lit.
     
  19. Robi D

    Robi D Minister of (Dis)Order

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    Well its been another interesting discussion with KISS, here is the chat log, condensed for your convienience (ie chit chat removed)


    So there you have it a pretty interesting chat. We now know that they have met TNT and are getting masonry from them, and that TNT has iron hooked up, but thats not really a surprise. The deal they are offering is;

    Masonry for HBR
    then
    Republic for Math + Currency + (gold or further tech swap)

    I believe we should take it as it will give us republic at the same time as them plus we get walls and catapults for our defences along the way.

    What we need to do is improve the deal for us by trying to work something out with MIA since KISS don't seem to be trading with them. If we can get MIA to reseach something were not then we can get a tech up on KISS during this trade. For example we can try to convince MIA to research MM for which we trade mason and math to them.

    There a lot of different permutations going on, but i would vote yes for the above KISS deal and get to work on leaning on MIA, so overall it ends up in our favour.

    PS- I quick response would be good since MIA will have writing any turn and be moving on with research, so if we want to get them going in another direction, this would be the time to do it.
     
  20. zyxy

    zyxy Warmongering Fool

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    HBR = 5, Masonry = 4. Again that's us giving up a point to the leaders of the game. We already did that in the previous trade. Again, HBR has high trade value, Masonry less, as TNT already has it.

    Math+Curr = 22, Repu = 26. That's them giving up 4 points. Difference: 3 points (or 2, if you want to count the earlier one). Three points is worth 90 gold, we could offer a percentage of that (at most 50%) to make up the difference.

    Are they doing slow research on Republic, or fast? If it's slow (50 turns), then we don't need to hurry with currency, and can perhaps just as well research republic ourselves.

    MapMaking for Lit is another deal where we give up 2 points....
    Team KISS is moving to an unbeatable position I'm afraid (if they don't have already). We shouldn't help them too much, and making deals consistently in their favor isn't a good idea.

    I agree that we need to talk with MIA soonish. Our only hope of staying up in the tech race is brokering. Unfortunately MIA is far behind, but maybe we can convince them o do MapMaking or Lit. They already have writing for 2 turns.
     

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