Neolithic loitering - delaying ancient age to cover more ground?

[fortydayweekend]

Are folks having any luck (or trying) on HK to capture a city or two off the AI with scouts without Harappans? Runners make it so easy, especially with another +1/2 strength, but I’m wondering if late start that is possible throwing 4 scouts at a time into cities with units and districts.

With 410 influence I’d take Phoenician rush harbors and influence buy them everywhere. My last game with them was mostly unattached territories until halfway through classical, but still tons of gold.

Landlocked start Some 3-mountain spots for Academies in 3 territories though.

I took an AI city with 7 scouts in my last game but it was opportunistic, after they wiped each other's main forces out in an early war.

 

[Victoria]

Mammoth-rich start: 28 pop and 410 influence on T20

This auto scout mammoth killing start is just OP, played it yesterday. I did not get a mammoth rich start but 20 scouts by T20 is just silly, got second and third city from them dues to good ground and high war support through killing their suicidal units first.

Are folks having any luck (or trying) on HK to capture a city or two off the AI with scouts without Harappans?

sure, I played around with it yesterday, it depends on being able to get 3-4 scouts around the city and defending while they come out of the walls to attack. Also it is where the second defender is because they cannot fit on the city. Certainly hit and miss, especially if the have a scout there.

These things make it possible to romp home on high levels and probably should be toned down, especially the first.

 

[EscapedGoat]

Mammoth-rich start: 28 pop and 410 influence on T20

20+ hunts, and 400 influence - that's a ridiculous amount of mammoths and shows the power of this approach to neolithic... There is no way having a city up around turn 10 will produce that amount of influence in the same time, even if you get the second one up around turn 18...

I tried a game under the new beta patch yesterday, and in that game I also hunted mammoths, but only 5-6, and I went ancient as Harrapans on turn 10 with 16(!) scouts, knowledge star and hunt star... was reasonably happy with that one in terms of accumulation of resources prior to turn 10 AND grabbing Harrapans Again, mammoths are key. I also learned that if you can control the high ground and deny it to the mammoth, it is actually possible for a tribe to "solo" a mammoth - which is a huge convenience over a 2-tribe hunting party (you "defend" the first 2 rounds and then counterattack on the 3rd).

This auto scout mammoth killing start is just OP

While I agree that the auto-scouting thing is a bit silly, I would argue it's not really THAT important beyond the first few "finds". When you get the ball rolling on tribes, you will mostly cover all the ground anyway, lessening the impact of the "autoscouting" feature as the power there just lies in beelining the initial curiosities - but if you cover all the ground, you find all the curiosities anyway. And mammoth hunting is clearly OP, or you could flip it around and say the yield from mammoths should not change when going ancient - that would certainly help lessen the impact of this strategy, as you can just hunt them later with stronger units for the same yield

 

[Victoria]

I would argue it's not really THAT important beyond the first few "finds".

Oh it is I feel. I you turn on autosvout every move for a unit and then turn it off you really notice the things it finds you never would have. Also turning off allows redirection because these spawn often appear where you have just been the turn before.

but if you cover all the ground, you find all the curiosities anyway.

nope, they keep popping up, brand new all the time everywhere, berries do regrow etc.

mammoth hunting is clearly OP

But you really need 3 scout s to safely take on a mammoth, as you get 20 food per mammoth this also helps keeping rolling. But you need lots of scouts for this. The auto scout gets these faster.

 

[EscapedGoat]

nope, they keep popping up, brand new all the time everywhere, berries do regrow etc.

You have a point, the autoscout "feature" will net you some of these for sure that you would otherwise miss.

But you really need 3 scout s to safely take on a mammoth

Not sure I agree with that. Generally the terrain dictates how many tribes you need, as the key modifier you are looking to set up the battle around is high ground.

You can "solo" a mammoth if you have the right terrain, i.e high ground that the mammoth cannot walk around to get "level" with you on. 2 times defence/end turn (for high ground + defence bonus) then counterattack. The primary reason to use 2 tribes is to deny the mammoth going up some hill to fight you from level ground, and to give adjacency advantage, sometimes rear-attack advantage. I would only use 3 tribes is if it was totally flat terrain and I try to avoid that if possible. The less you have to fuss about combining tribes etc. the better. Obviously sometimes 3 makes sense, you might have just combined tribes to share food to make a 3rd new tribe for example, then you are good to go if the mammoth is nearby and voila you have 4

 

[Victoria]

the key modifier you are looking to set up the battle around is high ground.

You have around 20 turns, you rarely have the chance to choose the terrain. Take 2 and have 2 damaged afterward is not good for a second mammoth

Obviously sometimes 3 makes sense

I just feel that it always makes sense, peel off the ones too damaged and still have enough for another. Also with 3 you get to… move defend then saving around get 2 rear attacks. Great flat ground strategy.
Naturally never take 4 because the food is then wasted.

 

[Siptah]

I still think that tribes should not auto heal every turn regardless of territorial ownership. And each tribe member should get a bit more expensive to maintain (through food upkeep?). That would change the way the Neolithic plays out to the better imho.

 

[EscapedGoat]

You have around 20 turns, you rarely have the chance to choose the terrain. Take 2 and have 2 damaged afterward is not good for a second mammoth

I just feel that it always makes sense, peel off the ones too damaged and still have enough for another. Also with 3 you get to… move defend then saving around get 2 rear attacks. Great flat ground strategy.

I may have to play around more with 3 then, a rear attack is basically a high ground attack. Are you saying you get 2 consistent rear attacks on flat ground with 3 tribes? I still think it's somewhat situational and soloing a mammoth is very time-efficient despite the unit being heavily damaged afterwards (he can do something else like scout behind, the new progeny wanders off to the next curiosity...

 

[Victoria]

a rear attack is basically a high ground attack.

And you do not always have high ground is what I am saying, and despite best intentions, solo does end up with me losing the odd bod along the way.
Maybe its personal taste, I just do not like waste.

 

[Siptah]

I've lost the odd tribe when fighting solo and didn't check before starting the hunt whether there are non river tiles to attack...

 

[PSG]

Mammoth killing might be a good way to counter the auto-cheat mode of the Ai. No matter what I do at least 2 of the AIs will have advanced into the classic age before I can even when I have a near perfect start. With this said I still think it's better to advance asap.

 

[Taefin]

Lol I’ve lost a tribe to deer by not being patient enough to always defend, starting at 75% health and getting lucky deer hits. But I’ll take on a mammoth solo when I see one and the terrain is not prohibitive, can’t skip a mammoth

Increasing food cost with each new tribe might do it, though I’d suggest dialing back the influence on hunting. Maybe only the first five game kills give influence, or repeat hunts of each type reduce by 5 influence each. Or influence drops to 5 when you meet your first ancient empire. At some point the populace should be like, yeah yeah we’ve seen you take on mammoths, but have you seen what the neighbors are doing?

 

[NombreyApellido]

Are folks having any luck (or trying) on HK to capture a city or two off the AI with scouts without Harappans? Runners make it so easy, especially with another +1/2 strength, but I’m wondering if late start that is possible throwing 4 scouts at a time into cities with units and districts.

With 410 influence I’d take Phoenician rush harbors and influence buy them everywhere. My last game with them was mostly unattached territories until halfway through classical, but still tons of gold.

i've taken both early cities from my neighbor in humankind level by turn 18-20 with regular scouts (stack of 2 with favorable terrain and stack of 4 in plains) against a population 1 levy defense from and expert persona. runners aren't a must...

the problem is you only get to keep one city after the AI war support plumets and a forced surrender takes place... since you're declaring surprise war, your own support numbers are very low and will only net you some reparations above a single city

--

it's always been about mammoths. jackpot is when you find 2 of them on adjacent tiles and get to engage them both in a single turn, the second one with a new fresh tribe

that is of course unless you get less food and inf than the nominal 20/20

not a fan of the slavery nerf and the money buyout price hike... to me, the single most valuable resource is time, so the more i can get done in a single turm, the better

 

[Victoria]

No matter what I do at least 2 of the AIs will have advanced into the classic age

have you tried maxxing out scientists at the start?

the problem is you only get to keep one city after the AI war support plumets and a forced surrender takes place... since you're declaring surprise war, your own support numbers are very low and will only net you some reparations above a single city

This is where I differ, I walk up to an AI unit near one of their outposts and wham, they attack me… 1:3 even. Time and again, then take 2 cities very fast with a normal war before they degrade to 0 and with a good wind you get both.

 

[PSG]

have you tried maxing out scientists at the start?

My bad I meant Ancient age from Neolithic. ....


Both games I have won have been come from behind victories though. Even though I was crushing in all categories they had me crushed in fame. It's not until I pick up a couple late wonders and finishing the tech tree that puts me ahead. I am concerned that the Ai is programmed like Civ6 where it is strong early and then peters out.

 

[Taefin]

I am concerned that the Ai is programmed like Civ6 where it is strong early and then peters out.

Im definitely hoping the AI coding is strong enough that with some smoother/dynamic difficulty style mods that dramatically accelerate the AI advantage in later eras, that they use that extra science/gold/production to build more districts and units. I half wonder if mid-late game wonders aren’t largely to blame for the stagnation. Without breaking your production, wonders take forever to build. I’d rather they take exponentially more influence to claim, convincing your people it’s worth it, but that it didn’t sideline your economy for such modest effects. Giza and Machu is good model of what I think other wonders should do. With Mexico I am getting cheap districts and it 200 food to every city (I think, does Machu break after loading a save game) which will allow me to found a bunch of small cities with lightning fast district building, which I would not have considered otherwise, due to weakening the hacienda effect. But there is no way the AI benefits from the wonders it builds to anywhere near this extent. And the leaders always claim at least 1 wonder at the beginning of each era, and they must build it because they’ll take another if given a chance. But this would certainly explain why the AI stops replenishing unit losses after classics, if all their cities are bogged down with wonders.

 

[NombreyApellido]

This is where I differ, I walk up to an AI unit near one of their outposts and wham, they attack me… 1:3 even. Time and again, then take 2 cities very fast with a normal war before they degrade to 0 and with a good wind you get both.

sounds good. i haven't had luck trying to farm war support and at the same time rush it for a couple of cities. they star spawning mounted scouts when i have only scouts... and on top of that, they get reinforcements very early

so to me it's a choice between a very early attack when their cities are at 0-1 pop or wait till i got stronger units out and i'm able to deploy reinforcements and use siege weapons as lure for defending forces

 

[Taefin]

Ah yeah, just finished a game on pollution, clicking through the contemporary in about an hour. The leading AI stayed within 1k of me, but in post game I see they only had half my production. We both built two contemporary wonders, mine took my entire empire 7 turns each, so they must have lost about 30 turns building the wonders wonders alone (Big Ben and Empire State, both basically useless to them).

 

[PSG]

Ah yeah, just finished a game on pollution, clicking through the contemporary in about an hour. The leading AI stayed within 1k of me, but in post game I see they only had half my production. We both built two contemporary wonders, mine took my entire empire 7 turns each, so they must have lost about 30 turns building the wonders wonders alone (Big Ben and Empire State, both basically useless to them).

A game can end on pollution? Playing on marathon (whatever the 600 turn game is) I find that I blitz through the final era before I see any significant effects from pollution.

 

[Buktu]

A game can end on pollution?

If the world reaches 20k (on normal speed, didnt try anything else yet) pollution the game ends. You cant even return to take one more turn if a game ends like this.