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nerfing financial

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Flamer123, Sep 12, 2007.

  1. Flamer123

    Flamer123 Chieftain

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    how do u feel about changing the trait to +1 gold for a +3 gold tile (instead of +2)?

    1) still favors CE but takes more investments till u gain the advantage - rivers will need 10 turns for cottages to mature to hamlets, and regular tiles 30 turns to mature to villages. with printing press it will be a lot easier to get that +1 gold.
    2) it means that it won't give u extra advantage on water tiles - that advantage is so huge it deserves to be a trait on its own.

    this nerfing will still mean that CE is the best in the long run, but more people will tend to go with SE early on (especially till printing press and on non-river tiles)
     
  2. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    No, financial is fine the way it is. No fast production of anything, no additional bonus', and less effective as the game proceeds. I do not think it is the strongest trait either. Also, it seams to be one of the traits that the AIs know how to use well, you think the tech pace in BTS is slow now, wait until you nerf financial.

    The only way I would consider this +1 commerce to +3 tiles (collosus would bascially double sea commerce for financial traits throwing off the wonder balance), is to give back the half priced banks and perhaps hal priced markets also.
     
  3. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    It is fine the way it is, not as overpowered as you might think.
     
  4. Qwack

    Qwack The Poopman

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    I have though about this before, and I think that instead of nerfing financial, the other traits that are weaker could all use a slight boost. Just makes more variation between games depending on trait combo I think.
     
  5. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    Taking away half cost Banks was a sufficient nerf IMO. Making it +3 would be going way too far, taking away the benefit on coastal tiles, river horse/phants, river windmills/watermills prior to Electricity. You basically only see benefit on happy metals and mature cottages. The trait is already weak enough early game, now you will make it weak mid game.

    Darrell
     
  6. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

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    I agree that financial could use a nerf and the way you're suggesting is exactly the way I've done it in shortly after the game came out. The main result is that the coastal tiles are less of an advantage and that river bound cottages take a little while to become great. It gives financial less of a commerce bonus compared to the other traits which is a good thing in my opinion.

    You could give the trait back its 100% production bonus on banks just for flavour.
     
  7. Dan Quale

    Dan Quale Prince

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    Organized is far far stronger, already even without the cheap courthouses which is huge (3 pop slave for a ch), organized saves you more money than finnancial makes with any civics combo. With high maintenance civics, organized will get you over 2x the returns of finnancial. Add to that inflation and you have an unbelievably strong trait.
    For each population civics costs increase, 1 commerce per tile is only nice for your first undeveloped cottages, after that the returns slope off dramatically.

    Finnancial really only shines in the very early game, after you expand your empire it really isnt as important.
     
  8. Terrance888

    Terrance888 Discord Reigns

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    What if you have both fanacial and organized (Yara of the Ethoipia)?
     
  9. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Catually it's Darius of Persia. Yara is creative and organised.
     
  10. Terrance888

    Terrance888 Discord Reigns

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    Dang! Stupid Senario rules!
     
  11. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

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    So you say that the cost reduction of the Organized trait outshines the commerce increase of the Financial trait later in the game while financial is only nice for the first few cottages? I'll have to disagree.

    A size 20 city would have a civic upkeep (not city upkeep) of around 10 with a normal set of civics used (at higher difficulty levels, it could be 12). Organized will halve this upkeep and you will thus save 5 gold.

    Such a size 20 city should have some 10 tiles with 2+ commerce (except for pure production cities, but you also have pure commerce cities). That means 10 extra commerce for such a city.

    The commerce is multiplied by the building multipliers in the city while the cost is multiplied by the inflation modifier. During most of the game, the building modifier will be larger than the inflation modifier making the difference between the two traits only larger.

    The Organized trait of course also has the half prised courthouses which is very nice. But I don't think that is worth the difference in commerce yield.

    But I also like the organised trait very much. It is a very nice trait, close to the power of the financial trait, but not quite there (in my opinion).
     
  12. Terrance888

    Terrance888 Discord Reigns

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    ...And if you play both Organized and Financial[pimp]
     
  13. Roland Johansen

    Roland Johansen Deity

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    A Rex-ers wet dream. ;)
     
  14. Cer

    Cer Warlord

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    Is there a civ for industrious+philosophical? Cheap wonders+ extra gpp from your cheap wonders and specialists.

    There is no such civ in vanilla which is what I have.
     
  15. uberfish

    uberfish Immortal

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    +1/+3 would drop financial from top tier straight to bottom - seriously. The strength of financial isn't in towns, it's in the water tiles and early river cottages that get boosted.
     
  16. kniteowl

    kniteowl Pirate Captain :P

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    You could always give Financial cheap coastal buildings to make up for the lost of the extra commerce for coastal tiles.

    maybe cheap Habours and Custom Houses, although you'll have to give Expansive another cheap building, Possibly Aquaducts, Hospitals or Supermarkets.

    And if it's still underpowered, return them the cheap banks too, all those mid game cheap buildings lol...
     
  17. Flamer123

    Flamer123 Chieftain

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    In my opinion, financial is just way too strong. Early on, ur capital or any of the 2-3 cities u additionally build will have rivers/$$ resources/food resources on sea. i've looked at my save games, and while cities early on are limited by 4-5 pop, at least 3 tiles in each and every city gain +1 $$ from financial, compared to what they would have gained had they not have it.

    i usually have 3 cities - so that's +9 $$ each and every turn early on - that's huge. and that's not counting the +25% from libary early on.

    later on, financial doesn't just diminish in strength, quite the opposite - in all my economic/science cities each and every tile has the +1 on it - so for pop 21 that's +20$$ - again, not counting the +% from buildigs.

    at least 1/3 of my cities have coastal access (i usually play fractal). on average, for a city size 10, 3 of the tiles are coastal tiles - so that's +3 per coastal city, thus +1 per city on average for each pop 10.
    for 10 cities of roughly pop 10, that's +10$$ which is roughly what the organized trait will get u... (thx Roland Johansen)

    even changing financial to +1 for +3 tile won't make it sub-par trait - it's advantages are just huge.



    as i see it, 2 traits are the most important "financially" which are financial and philosophical. either one of them is a must if u want to keep up with the ai's tech on high lvls.

    so let's compare the 2 traits. if u're philo, u'll go for SE, so that's farms + specialists. and if u're financial, u'll go for CE. (I won't turn it into CE vs SE thread).
    a grass+river tile which u'll normally find near ur capital and starting towns will get u +3F+1G for farmed and 2F+3G for cottaged. u need 2 farms for 1 specialist, so for 2 such tiles, it's - 6F+2G compared to 4F+6G.
    That's +4G for CE compared to the +3 GP rate. 2 specialists - tha'ts +8G compared to +6 GP rate.
    that's +8G advantage till u have the first great scientist (10 turns).
    so u'll say - in 10 turns (100/12) we'll have a great scientist, and settle it for +6G, and then the balance towards philo might shift. Nope, it doesn't - in those 10 turns ur cottages will mature to hamlets, making it +12G - compared to the +6G from the settled scientist it's still double, so CE consistently wins till late game.

    had financial been +1 on +3 tiles, the balance of power between those 2 traits would change back and forth - CE stronger early on (as i just explained), SE stronger later on cause the GPP needed to create a new GP increases only by 100 each time while cottages takes longer to mature, and finally, CE stronger late game cause of that raw +20$$ for ur economic/tech cities (which are usually at least half of the total number of cities u have).

    Regardless, the +1$$ for water tiles is strong enough by itself.

    i do think that the addition of a reduced production costs of banks/markets to the financial trait would be cool.

    I guarantee u that even if firaxis change the financial trait, the majority of players will still cottage spam and choose financial.

    long post, if u've made it to the finish line u probably don't have a life (what does it say about the writer ;) )
     
  18. Flamer123

    Flamer123 Chieftain

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    sorry, i miscalculated on my comparison of organized to financial water tiles. civics will cost u more than 1 $$ for a city size 10.

    besides estimating on experience, i don't know what's the formulas for civic costs, so if anyone knows, i'd be happy if he shares.
     
  19. axident

    axident Emperor

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    No. They got rid of it in beta testing because it could be ridiculously powerful with wonderspam.
     
  20. Bast

    Bast Protector of Cats

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    It's not overpowered. It's fine as it is.
     

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