1. Firaxis celebrates the "Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month", and offers a give-away of a Civ6 anthology copy (5 in total)! For all the details, please check the thread here. .
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Old World has finally been released on GOG and Steam, besides also being available in the Epic store . Come to our Old World forum and discuss with us!
    Dismiss Notice

[C3C] Nervous about war as a Republic

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by SebT27, Jan 7, 2022.

  1. SebT27

    SebT27 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2022
    Messages:
    10
    Gender:
    Male
    Hi

    I've just picked up CivIII (C3C version) again after a few years. This time I want to do something different.

    I've had a pretty predictable pattern in my games:

    1. Spend loads on research to be the most advanced civ
    2. Change to Monarchy ASAP
    3. Build just a few wonders: Temple of Artemis, Pyramids, Sun Tzu, Leonardo's, JS Bach, Adam Smith are my favourites.
    4. Connect up as many luxury resources as possible. Build Marketplaces once towns grow enough, enjoying the luxury happiness-multiplier.
    5. "Crush (all) my enemies, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentations of their women", like Conan said.
    6. Stay in Monarchy until all the crushing, driving and lamentation is done.
    This time, though I've started in the same way, I'd like to try being a warmongering Republic. But I'm scared of WarWeariness. I have read this https://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/game-mechanics/how-does-war-weariness-work/ article, but know nothing about weariness in practice. The calculation looks scary:

    "Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)"

    Even if a war goes well, with nothing really bad happening (e.g. losing a city), 2 points 15 times (not unlikely in a war) would bring me up to what the article calls "Level 1 war-weariness" (25% unhappy people in a Republic). And "Level 2" (50% unhappy people) isn't far off from that. This seems unmanageable, especially as WW seems to take a long time to decay after peace: AFAIK even switching back to e.g. Monarchy doesn't make citizens "forget".

    I've considered and tried Feudalism, but don't really like it: no cash-rushing, and I tend to aim for cities quite early on rather than spamming towns, so the unit support relative to Monarchy makes no sense.

    My best bet seems to be to get the AI to attack me, so that I start from (I think) -30 War Happiness. Does leaving units in their territory work for this? I guess I mustn't respond to their protest by declaring war (rather than moving the unit/allowing it to be automoved), or that makes me the aggressor, so I'm not sure how to do this.

    Does anyone have any other tips on how to wage war as a Republic? Of course, my "conquer the world" aim (5 above) might have to take second place - or take longer - as a Republic; maybe I'll have to go for a Spaceship win rather than my usual "destroy everyone" win.
     
  2. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone \ Cold / Fish

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,200
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Inside my skull
    It is true that "background" WW-points can take a long time to decay, but they also cease to have any effect once you make peace with (or destroy!) the AI-Civ which gave those points to you.

    So yes, if you cannot kill them in the first war, and another war with them begins too soon afterwards, you will immediately get (most of) that WW-effect back. WW is generally manageable under Republic though, because of the Commerce-bonus (i.e. +1 Commerce from every tile already producing at least 1 Commerce). This gives you a huge amount of Commerce over a well-developed core (i.e. every worked tile roaded, Coast and Sea-tiles worked, using Harbours if necessary to avoid starvation), which can be converted to happiness using the Lux-slider.

    A prolonged war may require you to push Lux-spending high, but that is still preferable to letting your cities go into disorder (and under Republic they should be cities, for the extra unit-support) -- and much better than revolting (back) to Monarchy.
    Yes, getting WH helps a lot, if you were intending to go to war with that Civ anyway.

    It should also be noted that WW is calculated for each AI-Civ separately, so if you are declared upon directly (i.e. not as a result of an opponent joining an MA or MPP) by all 7 opponents on a Standard-size map, then you would get 7 * -30 = -210 WW-points!

    So ideally, you should aim to provoke those declarations of war from overseas AIs who can't reach you because they haven't yet discovered Astronomy/Navigation (which allow resource-trading over Sea and Ocean respectively, but also -- crucially -- allow the AI to feel safe leaving its ships in those 'dangerous' waters over the interturn). Because any negative WW-points (i.e. WH) from overseas Civs, will not be lost until they can start sinking your boats/ landing units on your territory (and even in the latter case, except for Viking Beserks, you will have 1 turn to kill those units before they can even start attacking yours).

    Therefore, you should start sending out exploratory ships -- even just Curraghs -- as early as possible, to find those overseas AIs. Yes, you will lose a lot of them, don't worry about that: only one ship needs to make it to (each of) the other landmass(es), to contact all the AIs who aren't on yours (on a Standard 70% Continents map, there will usually only be 2 major landmasses).

    You might prefer to keep a few friends, though... ;)
    Not directly, no. But it may/will worsen their attitude towards you, making a (later) declaration from them more likely.
    If you want to obtain WH, then yes, you need them to declare on you.

    Not only that, but you declaring when you have units in their territory will destroy your "RoP-reputation" with all the other AIs (who know the one that you attacked), making them all (much) less inclined to make (cheap/easy) RoP-agreements with you for the rest of the game.
    The "best" way to get the AI to attack you is to have something they want (e.g. techs, gold, resources) while looking militarily weaker than they are, i.e. by building fewer (offensive) units than they have.

    (You can, however, balance your sparser attack-units by building more bombardment-units, which the unmodded AI undervalues/ ignores when assessing relative military strength.)

    They are then more likely to demand tribute, and when you refuse, they are more likely to declare on you.

    Being weaker than the AI players becomes almost inevitable as you increase the difficulty level: up to Regent, AIs may not even feel brave enough to try extortion in the first place (because if the human is playing even halfway competently, it is quite difficult to be weaker than a Regent AI!), but Monarch-AIs may, and Emp+ AIs not only will, they will usually also not back down when their demands are rebuffed.

    You may be worried about refusing demands, and if you are not yet ready for war, it may be the better part of valour to fold (especially at Emp+, especially in the very early game). If you think you can win, though, then go ahead and send their envoys back with a flea in their ear -- and then kick their butts!

    Minor edit added
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2022
  3. justanick

    justanick Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,278
    Location:
    Germany
    Don't be. :)

    On the contrary. Even 100% war weariness is quite managable, albeit a bit uncomfortable as you will have to increase the luxury slider at the expense of the research slider.

    25% or 50% war weariness is no need to worry. Just make sure to only fight one real war at a time and make sure that before war weariness reaches a significant level you reach a significant military advantage that allows you to end the war in your favour. This can be a peace treaty which will render the war weariness mute. But the best way to end a war is by ending your enemy.

    As a republic you can use your ample available gtp to buy other AIs into your war. First declare war, second buy other AIs into the war, third wait about four turns in your own territory in more or less defensive posture in order to not accumulate WW points. Once the AIs have started to wear themselves down enough you start your offensive and you donnot stop till the enemy is no more.

    Feudalism has the same WW as Republic anyway.

    No, this is not your best bet. When there is a really good opportunity to let AI declare war on you, you should of course use that opportunity. There is one problem though: If you play well and have a strong military and well defended cities etc., then AI is unlikely to be baited. You should really consider what you are willing to sacrifice in favour of WH. My conclusion is that it is not worth it most of the time.

    Fake wars with oversea civs are a seperate issue.
     
  4. SebT27

    SebT27 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2022
    Messages:
    10
    Gender:
    Male
    Thank you for all your tips!

    Thanks to them I'm not worried about WW any more. In fact, I tried it out:
    • Changed to Republic
    • Declared war on Carthage, on my continent (I could have declare during Anarchy, but I wanted to see what a whole "war as a Republic" would be like
    • Destroyed them in 11 turns
    • War weariness? I didn't even notice any...
    It helped that I had a massive stack of doom left over from crushing the Iroquois - next to Carthage. At this stage (researching Physics, so no rails yet) having a giant SoD is irrelevant if it isn't in the right place (or close). Also a Knight Army is never a bad thing to have... and finishing JS Bach just before Republic felt like cheating. But all my Temples (from Temple of Artemis) had just disappeared (I can't remember which tech makes that Wonder obsolete), and even so I hardly noticed any unhappiness, even in my bursting-at-the-seams 12pop metros.

    I did keep a record of the "weariness-relevant" things that happened. My units were in enemy territory all 11 turns. Enemy units were in my territory 3 turns. I had 2 attacks on me, and lost 5 units. But... no sign whatsoever of unhappiness. Does that 25%/50%/100% "unhappy people" in the WW article mean "of your entire population", or of some proportion of it? It also seems odd that losing a unit/having a unit attacked has a fixed WW score, which isn't proportional to the size of your army/population. Perhaps, because of these absolute numbers, WW is more of a problem in a "serious" war of the kind I remember from playing on Regent: the kind where you lose dozens of units?

    Now I'm sold on Republic! I'd already heavily developed my core with Marketplaces (for the luxury multiplier), Libraries and a few Universities. By now the largest cities have Banks as well, and my problem is what to do with all my cash... I'm researching tech at 4 turns/tech, Luxury slider is still at 0%, people are happy, and I'm making money hand over fist. Perhaps, by accident, my tactic of linking up loads of luxuries (I had 5, now also have Wine from an overseas trade) made my Monarchy very "Republic-ready".
     
  5. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone \ Cold / Fish

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,200
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Inside my skull
    The ToA goes obsolete with Education (as does the GLib).
    It means, "in each town/city/metro" -- so a Pop4 town would have 1 unhappy citizen at Level 1 WW, 2 at Levels 2+3, and 4 at Level 4 (etc.).

    But the WW-effect will not necessarily correlate directly with the number of actually unhappy people in the town, since all unhappiness is countered by the "happyfaces" generated by Lux%-spending in that town (i.e. the global Lux%-slider setting, multiplied by the local uncorrupted commerce), and/or available Lux-resources (including any boost from Markets), and/or direct contentment-/ happiness-effects from Temples, etc.
     
  6. justanick

    justanick Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,278
    Location:
    Germany
    It is calculated seperately for each town. 25% means that you get one unhappy face for every fourth citizen. So that is zero at size 1 to 3, one at size 4 to 7, two at size 8 to 11 and 3 at size 12 to 15 etc..

    Unhappy faces come from drafting or poprushing or war waeriness or war against home civization or simply exceeding size 2 at regent or size 1 at emperor.

    Unhappy faces are negated by content faces from wonders, tempels or military police(not applicable as a republic). Also unused happy faces can be used to negate unhappy faces.

    Yes, at large maps and higher difficulty level this becomes more relevant. Regent however is not one of the higher difficulty settings.

    Welcome to the Republic. As 4 turns per tech can be reached sometimes as early as the ancient age reaching the tech military tradition for cavalry early is possible. Therefore waiting for the first (serios) war till then is an option.

    It also means that Temple of Artemis is a really poor wonder as it becomes obsolete before it can be completed by regular means.

    No.

    5 luxuries with marketplaces give 9 happy faces so this does help to keep the luxury slider down. But even with no luxury goods at all the Republic would give a much higher net commerce than a monarchy. That net commerce can be spent on research.

    The difficulty as a Republic is not so much the war weariness, but rather unit support. 2 gtp for every unit above the free unit support can reduce net commerce by a relevant margin.
     
  7. SebT27

    SebT27 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2022
    Messages:
    10
    Gender:
    Male
    Thanks. I think I was unclear. I don't mean my Monarchy was just as good as a Republic - now that I am a Republic, the evidence against that is right in front of me in the form of much less waste/corruption, "Scientific Method in 4 turns" and "4000 gold in the bank" :lol:. What I mean is that if the map allows piling up the luxuries early on without too much effort (as this one did), that could be a good strategy against future War Weariness as a Republic.

    If a Monarchy already has 4-5 Luxuries connected, and perhaps a few Marketplaces in the big core cities/metros, then after the change to Republic and the start of a war, their effect could swamp quite a lot of WW. Even from my two minor wars as a Republic (I crushed the Maya on my continent as well), I may be suffering from some underlying WW. I can't see, as you can only ask citizens what's bothering them if they're actually overtly Unhappy (and the few Unhappies I have all give the standard "It's too crowded" reply). With more insight, I might be able to see a happy citizen saying "Yes, I hate the war with the [other civ], but since I'm drinking this Wine from an Ivory cup while lying on an Incense-scented Fur-lined sofa I'm not really bothered, actually". It's the kind of thing an update to CivAssist might do very well: some more detail on the Cities view showing the maths behind each city's morale (citz in excess of the difficulty level base Content citizens limit, WW, Temples-Coloss-Cathedrals, Wonders, Lux slider, entertainers, luxuries/Marketplaces etc).

    It's interesting that you find the Unit Support far more of a problem than WW. I'm only experimenting on Chieftain so it's not economically critical for me, but I'm already thinking harder about which units I actually need.
     
    tjs282 likes this.
  8. justanick

    justanick Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,278
    Location:
    Germany
    The reduction of waste and corruption is very small. What really counts is the commerce bonus. If the corruption difference would be the other way, the republic would still be the better choice.

    Well, that is not quite untrue, but it is somewhat weak. In practice you can expect that luxuries allow you to use zero luxury slider without war weariness, but once war weariness hits you need to use the luxury slider anyway, as you are unlikely to have excess luxury goods. With the sixth luxury goods this changes a bit, but if not importing the sixth luxury good saves you some bucks, then this also needs to be considered. Normally you donnot want to waste your limited means for more happiness than needed.

    WW is calculated for each war seperately and is only applying while the war is still ongoing.

    If there is only one unhappy citizen, then all (active) causes for unhappyness are listed there. But WW is only active for ongoing wars.

    Well, Chieftain is really extremely easy. Even regent is still very easy in my mind, but i might be an unsuitably high standard there.
     

Share This Page