[C3C] Nervous about war as a Republic

SebT27

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 3, 2022
Messages
10
Hi

I've just picked up CivIII (C3C version) again after a few years. This time I want to do something different.

I've had a pretty predictable pattern in my games:

  1. Spend loads on research to be the most advanced civ
  2. Change to Monarchy ASAP
  3. Build just a few wonders: Temple of Artemis, Pyramids, Sun Tzu, Leonardo's, JS Bach, Adam Smith are my favourites.
  4. Connect up as many luxury resources as possible. Build Marketplaces once towns grow enough, enjoying the luxury happiness-multiplier.
  5. "Crush (all) my enemies, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentations of their women", like Conan said.
  6. Stay in Monarchy until all the crushing, driving and lamentation is done.
This time, though I've started in the same way, I'd like to try being a warmongering Republic. But I'm scared of WarWeariness. I have read this https://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/game-mechanics/how-does-war-weariness-work/ article, but know nothing about weariness in practice. The calculation looks scary:

"Add 2 wwp when a unit with defence value is attacked. (Even if you win)"

Even if a war goes well, with nothing really bad happening (e.g. losing a city), 2 points 15 times (not unlikely in a war) would bring me up to what the article calls "Level 1 war-weariness" (25% unhappy people in a Republic). And "Level 2" (50% unhappy people) isn't far off from that. This seems unmanageable, especially as WW seems to take a long time to decay after peace: AFAIK even switching back to e.g. Monarchy doesn't make citizens "forget".

I've considered and tried Feudalism, but don't really like it: no cash-rushing, and I tend to aim for cities quite early on rather than spamming towns, so the unit support relative to Monarchy makes no sense.

My best bet seems to be to get the AI to attack me, so that I start from (I think) -30 War Happiness. Does leaving units in their territory work for this? I guess I mustn't respond to their protest by declaring war (rather than moving the unit/allowing it to be automoved), or that makes me the aggressor, so I'm not sure how to do this.

Does anyone have any other tips on how to wage war as a Republic? Of course, my "conquer the world" aim (5 above) might have to take second place - or take longer - as a Republic; maybe I'll have to go for a Spaceship win rather than my usual "destroy everyone" win.
 
This seems unmanageable, especially as WW seems to take a long time to decay after peace: AFAIK even switching back to e.g. Monarchy doesn't make citizens "forget".
It is true that "background" WW-points can take a long time to decay, but they also cease to have any effect once you make peace with (or destroy!) the AI-Civ which gave those points to you.

So yes, if you cannot kill them in the first war, and another war with them begins too soon afterwards, you will immediately get (most of) that WW-effect back. WW is generally manageable under Republic though, because of the Commerce-bonus (i.e. +1 Commerce from every tile already producing at least 1 Commerce). This gives you a huge amount of Commerce over a well-developed core (i.e. every worked tile roaded, Coast and Sea-tiles worked, using Harbours if necessary to avoid starvation), which can be converted to happiness using the Lux-slider.

A prolonged war may require you to push Lux-spending high, but that is still preferable to letting your cities go into disorder (and under Republic they should be cities, for the extra unit-support) -- and much better than revolting (back) to Monarchy.
My best bet seems to be to get the AI to attack me, so that I start from (I think) -30 War Happiness.
Yes, getting WH helps a lot, if you were intending to go to war with that Civ anyway.

It should also be noted that WW is calculated for each AI-Civ separately, so if you are declared upon directly (i.e. not as a result of an opponent joining an MA or MPP) by all 7 opponents on a Standard-size map, then you would get 7 * -30 = -210 WW-points!

So ideally, you should aim to provoke those declarations of war from overseas AIs who can't reach you because they haven't yet discovered Astronomy/Navigation (which allow resource-trading over Sea and Ocean respectively, but also -- crucially -- allow the AI to feel safe leaving its ships in those 'dangerous' waters over the interturn). Because any negative WW-points (i.e. WH) from overseas Civs, will not be lost until they can start sinking your boats/ landing units on your territory (and even in the latter case, except for Viking Beserks, you will have 1 turn to kill those units before they can even start attacking yours).

Therefore, you should start sending out exploratory ships -- even just Curraghs -- as early as possible, to find those overseas AIs. Yes, you will lose a lot of them, don't worry about that: only one ship needs to make it to (each of) the other landmass(es), to contact all the AIs who aren't on yours (on a Standard 70% Continents map, there will usually only be 2 major landmasses).

You might prefer to keep a few friends, though... ;)
Does leaving units in their territory work for this?
Not directly, no. But it may/will worsen their attitude towards you, making a (later) declaration from them more likely.
I guess I mustn't respond to their protest by declaring war (rather than moving the unit/allowing it to be automoved), or that makes me the aggressor
If you want to obtain WH, then yes, you need them to declare on you.

Not only that, but you declaring when you have units in their territory will destroy your "RoP-reputation" with all the other AIs (who know the one that you attacked), making them all (much) less inclined to make (cheap/easy) RoP-agreements with you for the rest of the game.
so I'm not sure how to do this.
The "best" way to get the AI to attack you is to have something they want (e.g. techs, gold, resources) while looking militarily weaker than they are, i.e. by building fewer (offensive) units than they have.

(You can, however, balance your sparser attack-units by building more bombardment-units, which the unmodded AI undervalues/ ignores when assessing relative military strength.)

They are then more likely to demand tribute, and when you refuse, they are more likely to declare on you.

Being weaker than the AI players becomes almost inevitable as you increase the difficulty level: up to Regent, AIs may not even feel brave enough to try extortion in the first place (because if the human is playing even halfway competently, it is quite difficult to be weaker than a Regent AI!), but Monarch-AIs may, and Emp+ AIs not only will, they will usually also not back down when their demands are rebuffed.

You may be worried about refusing demands, and if you are not yet ready for war, it may be the better part of valour to fold (especially at Emp+, especially in the very early game). If you think you can win, though, then go ahead and send their envoys back with a flea in their ear -- and then kick their butts!

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But I'm scared of WarWeariness.

Don't be. :)

Even if a war goes well, with nothing really bad happening (e.g. losing a city), 2 points 15 times (not unlikely in a war) would bring me up to what the article calls "Level 1 war-weariness" (25% unhappy people in a Republic). And "Level 2" (50% unhappy people) isn't far off from that. This seems unmanageable,

On the contrary. Even 100% war weariness is quite managable, albeit a bit uncomfortable as you will have to increase the luxury slider at the expense of the research slider.

25% or 50% war weariness is no need to worry. Just make sure to only fight one real war at a time and make sure that before war weariness reaches a significant level you reach a significant military advantage that allows you to end the war in your favour. This can be a peace treaty which will render the war weariness mute. But the best way to end a war is by ending your enemy.

As a republic you can use your ample available gtp to buy other AIs into your war. First declare war, second buy other AIs into the war, third wait about four turns in your own territory in more or less defensive posture in order to not accumulate WW points. Once the AIs have started to wear themselves down enough you start your offensive and you donnot stop till the enemy is no more.

I've considered and tried Feudalism

Feudalism has the same WW as Republic anyway.

My best bet seems to be to get the AI to attack me, so that I start from (I think) -30 War Happiness.

No, this is not your best bet. When there is a really good opportunity to let AI declare war on you, you should of course use that opportunity. There is one problem though: If you play well and have a strong military and well defended cities etc., then AI is unlikely to be baited. You should really consider what you are willing to sacrifice in favour of WH. My conclusion is that it is not worth it most of the time.

Fake wars with oversea civs are a seperate issue.
 
Thank you for all your tips!

Thanks to them I'm not worried about WW any more. In fact, I tried it out:
  • Changed to Republic
  • Declared war on Carthage, on my continent (I could have declare during Anarchy, but I wanted to see what a whole "war as a Republic" would be like
  • Destroyed them in 11 turns
  • War weariness? I didn't even notice any...
It helped that I had a massive stack of doom left over from crushing the Iroquois - next to Carthage. At this stage (researching Physics, so no rails yet) having a giant SoD is irrelevant if it isn't in the right place (or close). Also a Knight Army is never a bad thing to have... and finishing JS Bach just before Republic felt like cheating. But all my Temples (from Temple of Artemis) had just disappeared (I can't remember which tech makes that Wonder obsolete), and even so I hardly noticed any unhappiness, even in my bursting-at-the-seams 12pop metros.

I did keep a record of the "weariness-relevant" things that happened. My units were in enemy territory all 11 turns. Enemy units were in my territory 3 turns. I had 2 attacks on me, and lost 5 units. But... no sign whatsoever of unhappiness. Does that 25%/50%/100% "unhappy people" in the WW article mean "of your entire population", or of some proportion of it? It also seems odd that losing a unit/having a unit attacked has a fixed WW score, which isn't proportional to the size of your army/population. Perhaps, because of these absolute numbers, WW is more of a problem in a "serious" war of the kind I remember from playing on Regent: the kind where you lose dozens of units?

Now I'm sold on Republic! I'd already heavily developed my core with Marketplaces (for the luxury multiplier), Libraries and a few Universities. By now the largest cities have Banks as well, and my problem is what to do with all my cash... I'm researching tech at 4 turns/tech, Luxury slider is still at 0%, people are happy, and I'm making money hand over fist. Perhaps, by accident, my tactic of linking up loads of luxuries (I had 5, now also have Wine from an overseas trade) made my Monarchy very "Republic-ready".
 
But all my Temples (from Temple of Artemis) had just disappeared (I can't remember which tech makes that Wonder obsolete), and even so I hardly noticed any unhappiness, even in my bursting-at-the-seams 12pop metros.
The ToA goes obsolete with Education (as does the GLib).
Does that 25%/50%/100% "unhappy people" in the WW article mean "of your entire population", or of some proportion of it?
It means, "in each town/city/metro" -- so a Pop4 town would have 1 unhappy citizen at Level 1 WW, 2 at Levels 2+3, and 4 at Level 4 (etc.).

But the WW-effect will not necessarily correlate directly with the number of actually unhappy people in the town, since all unhappiness is countered by the "happyfaces" generated by Lux%-spending in that town (i.e. the global Lux%-slider setting, multiplied by the local uncorrupted commerce), and/or available Lux-resources (including any boost from Markets), and/or direct contentment-/ happiness-effects from Temples, etc.
 
Does that 25%/50%/100% "unhappy people" in the WW article mean "of your entire population", or of some proportion of it?

It is calculated seperately for each town. 25% means that you get one unhappy face for every fourth citizen. So that is zero at size 1 to 3, one at size 4 to 7, two at size 8 to 11 and 3 at size 12 to 15 etc..

Unhappy faces come from drafting or poprushing or war waeriness or war against home civization or simply exceeding size 2 at regent or size 1 at emperor.

Unhappy faces are negated by content faces from wonders, tempels or military police(not applicable as a republic). Also unused happy faces can be used to negate unhappy faces.

It also seems odd that losing a unit/having a unit attacked has a fixed WW score, which isn't proportional to the size of your army/population. Perhaps, because of these absolute numbers, WW is more of a problem in a "serious" war of the kind I remember from playing on Regent: the kind where you lose dozens of units?

Yes, at large maps and higher difficulty level this becomes more relevant. Regent however is not one of the higher difficulty settings.

Now I'm sold on Republic! I'd already heavily developed my core with Marketplaces (for the luxury multiplier), Libraries and a few Universities. By now the largest cities have Banks as well, and my problem is what to do with all my cash... I'm researching tech at 4 turns/tech, Luxury slider is still at 0%, people are happy, and I'm making money hand over fist.

Welcome to the Republic. As 4 turns per tech can be reached sometimes as early as the ancient age reaching the tech military tradition for cavalry early is possible. Therefore waiting for the first (serios) war till then is an option.

It also means that Temple of Artemis is a really poor wonder as it becomes obsolete before it can be completed by regular means.

Perhaps, by accident, my tactic of linking up loads of luxuries (I had 5, now also have Wine from an overseas trade) made my Monarchy very "Republic-ready".

No.

5 luxuries with marketplaces give 9 happy faces so this does help to keep the luxury slider down. But even with no luxury goods at all the Republic would give a much higher net commerce than a monarchy. That net commerce can be spent on research.

The difficulty as a Republic is not so much the war weariness, but rather unit support. 2 gtp for every unit above the free unit support can reduce net commerce by a relevant margin.
 
No.

5 luxuries with marketplaces give 9 happy faces so this does help to keep the luxury slider down. But even with no luxury goods at all the Republic would give a much higher net commerce than a monarchy. That net commerce can be spent on research.

The difficulty as a Republic is not so much the war weariness, but rather unit support. 2 gtp for every unit above the free unit support can reduce net commerce by a relevant margin.

Thanks. I think I was unclear. I don't mean my Monarchy was just as good as a Republic - now that I am a Republic, the evidence against that is right in front of me in the form of much less waste/corruption, "Scientific Method in 4 turns" and "4000 gold in the bank" :lol:. What I mean is that if the map allows piling up the luxuries early on without too much effort (as this one did), that could be a good strategy against future War Weariness as a Republic.

If a Monarchy already has 4-5 Luxuries connected, and perhaps a few Marketplaces in the big core cities/metros, then after the change to Republic and the start of a war, their effect could swamp quite a lot of WW. Even from my two minor wars as a Republic (I crushed the Maya on my continent as well), I may be suffering from some underlying WW. I can't see, as you can only ask citizens what's bothering them if they're actually overtly Unhappy (and the few Unhappies I have all give the standard "It's too crowded" reply). With more insight, I might be able to see a happy citizen saying "Yes, I hate the war with the [other civ], but since I'm drinking this Wine from an Ivory cup while lying on an Incense-scented Fur-lined sofa I'm not really bothered, actually". It's the kind of thing an update to CivAssist might do very well: some more detail on the Cities view showing the maths behind each city's morale (citz in excess of the difficulty level base Content citizens limit, WW, Temples-Coloss-Cathedrals, Wonders, Lux slider, entertainers, luxuries/Marketplaces etc).

It's interesting that you find the Unit Support far more of a problem than WW. I'm only experimenting on Chieftain so it's not economically critical for me, but I'm already thinking harder about which units I actually need.
 
Thanks. I think I was unclear. I don't mean my Monarchy was just as good as a Republic - now that I am a Republic, the evidence against that is right in front of me in the form of much less waste/corruption,

The reduction of waste and corruption is very small. What really counts is the commerce bonus. If the corruption difference would be the other way, the republic would still be the better choice.

What I mean is that if the map allows piling up the luxuries early on without too much effort (as this one did), that could be a good strategy against future War Weariness as a Republic.

Well, that is not quite untrue, but it is somewhat weak. In practice you can expect that luxuries allow you to use zero luxury slider without war weariness, but once war weariness hits you need to use the luxury slider anyway, as you are unlikely to have excess luxury goods. With the sixth luxury goods this changes a bit, but if not importing the sixth luxury good saves you some bucks, then this also needs to be considered. Normally you donnot want to waste your limited means for more happiness than needed.

Even from my two minor wars as a Republic (I crushed the Maya on my continent as well), I may be suffering from some underlying WW.

WW is calculated for each war seperately and is only applying while the war is still ongoing.

I can't see, as you can only ask citizens what's bothering them if they're actually overtly Unhappy (and the few Unhappies I have all give the standard "It's too crowded" reply).

If there is only one unhappy citizen, then all (active) causes for unhappyness are listed there. But WW is only active for ongoing wars.

It's interesting that you find the Unit Support far more of a problem than WW. I'm only experimenting on Chieftain so it's not economically critical for me, but I'm already thinking harder about which units I actually need.

Well, Chieftain is really extremely easy. Even regent is still very easy in my mind, but i might be an unsuitably high standard there.
 
As I've demonstrated in this post, war govs like Monarchy/Fascism/Communism are definitely a better choice in most cases compared to Republics: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ike-monarchy-are-better-than-republic.683358/. Just want to help :)
You explained _when_ a monarchy is better than a republic.
But for the statement "war govs like Monarchy/Fascism/Communism are definitely a better choice in most cases compared to Republics" to be true, you will have to demonstrate different scenarios where this is true.
A claim that is true under circumstances isnt necessarily true under *most* circumstances.

Give us 10 sutuations and then calculate what gov is better. Then draw conclusions.

I could draw up situations where x is better than y, but that doesnt mean x is "mostly" better.
 
@ Theov - if only he had explained the "when"... if only. but it was just the claim.
t_x
 
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If you are playing a Religious civilization, the question becomes somewhat moot, as with only one turn of Anarchy with the change in government, switching back and forth is not a problem. If you are not going to be in a war in the near future, then Republic or Democracy is a good choice. If I am going to be in a war, then I go with my modified version of Monarchy.
 
If you are playing a Religious civilization, the question becomes somewhat moot, as with only one turn of Anarchy with the change in government, switching back and forth is not a problem.
It is 2 turns of anarchy each, not one. Switching is no good choice and if you are going to limit yourself to the one needed anarchy from despotism to republic, then choosing a religious tribe over a nonreligious tribe is no good decision either.
 
isn´t that level-dependent? i thought it was 1t anarchy on Chieftain and Warlord, and 2t Regent or Monarch upwards... but honestly, I do not remember that well.

otherwise, only adding, that if you revolt at the very time of research of the govt tech, you "kind of" save 0,5 turns of anarchy, as you already enjoyed the commerce part of the IBT. thus, you could call it a "0,5t anarchy", or "1,5t anarchy". (of course, there is more than 2 sections of the IBT, in all kinds of production, that is food, commerce and shields... but i did not want to start with 0,33 and 0,66 of a turn ;)).

t_x
 
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It is 2 turns of anarchy each, not one. Switching is no good choice and if you are going to limit yourself to the one needed anarchy from despotism to republic, then choosing a religious tribe over a nonreligious tribe is no good decision either.
I am playing on Regent, and it is one turn and if I time the change right before hitting the space bar for the next turn, I go from Depotism to Republic or Republic to Monarchy at the start of the next turn. Essentially, I loose nothing.
 
If I am going to be in a war, then I go with my modified version of Monarchy.
I see no relevance in bringing up to some modified version of Monarchy here. The question presumably concerns the unmodded epic game, or at least with very few modifications. The value of some modded Monarchy may easily be drastically different than it's value in the epic game. There's also no relevance to how to wage war well as a Republic. "I wouldn't do it" makes for more of a way saying that you don't see the value in the question. That's all on you. And why would you understand the possible value of warring as a Republic since you don't do it?

Also, I think some of us here also will say that warring in a Republic can be better than warring in a Monarchy. In a republic one can still do quick research and then sell tech for gpt once learning a technology, which isn't as effective, if at all, of a strategy as a Monarchy.
 
In practice, I'd advise a few things. I will use ancient age example units though:

1. Don't attack enemy cities unless you either will win every battle or have a high probability of capturing the city that turn. This means don't attack an enemy city with 3 archers! Instead, try to wait until you have like 7 archers.
2. Minimize losses. That means try not to get into battles which are less likely to result in victories. Artillery type units have an effect here with large enough numbers. That 7 archer stack? No... make it like 7 archers and 5 catapults. Also, it might get attacked. So take a spearman or two with that stack.
3. Don't get attacked when you can avoid it. See some warrior coming to attack your city? Don't let the warrior attack your spearmen in a city. Instead, use an archer to attack that spearman on flatland. One thing I've learned is that if a warrior is near a city without a 2+ defense unit in it, but a spearman is closer, that enemy warrior will go toward towards the city instead. That way the AIs can get manipulated into moving into a position where an archer can more easily attack it, instead of it attacking a spear in a city. Also, once you have an army with all units of defense strength 2 and is fairly healthy, it likely won't get attacked by an AI. So, that army can get used to cover units or finish up attacking AI units on a given turn.
4. Try to fight offensively more often than defensively. Kill their units before their attack you. This gets much easier with multiple armies used for defensive cover and rails. Use the army's vision to plan an attack before doing so. Try not to have a 1/4 calvary left out in the middle of a spot where it might get attacked. Instead, try to cover it with an army or wait to attack some slow moving unit on that turn. Also, killing their units before getting attacked makes generating leaders more likely.
5. Don't be afraid of the luxury slider. You can war forever basically in a republic if you have a strong road network. The government won't collapse, if you just use the luxury slider enough *if* war weariness gets desparate. Perhaps that means your economy gets shot and lose a unit every turn, but if you're selling technology for gpt from the AIs, that becomes less of a concern. Additionally, I think you can only lose one improvement per turn if you have an entirely shot economy. You might not be using that granary anymore in some core city anyways (or you can do alright without it).
6. Also, military alliances. I think this got covered already though.
 
Building on those good points --

2a Bringing some spearmen/defenders in the stack are useful both for stack defense and for garrisoning the cities that you conquer.

5 Lux slider is your friend. Boosting it affects all your cities, much simpler than visiting each one to tweak the specialists.

6a Be very wary of MPPs (mutual protection pacts), though military alliances are very useful. Remember that it is an agreement that lasts 20 turns. Many times I have done this (in Republic):
- Declared war on my target
- Bribed a neighbor to join a military alliance with me, against the target. Usually a tech will persuade them
This alliance has the side benefit of keeping my target from bribing my neighbor to attack *me*, forcing me to fight a two-front war and increase my war weariness
- Carry out my attacks, conquer some cities, achieve my objective, such as, get a luxury

Now, if only 10 turns have elapsed, my enemy may ask for peace. DON'T DO IT! It's a trap. Ending the war before the alliance has expired means you have broken an agreement, which will affect your trade deals later in the game.
Instead, reinforce your positions, consolidate your gains, and wait for one of two things to happen
- the full 20 turns take place, so you can cancel the alliance and then make peace
- your ally makes peace first, that is, they break the alliance not you

Keeping your trade reputation for as long as practical means that you will be able to trade for luxuries from faraway AIs, to keep overall happiness up.
 
5 Lux slider is your friend. Boosting it affects all your cities, much simpler than visiting each one to tweak the specialists.
Is it merely a question of simplicity, or is the slider better for any additional reason(s)?
 
Is it merely a question of simplicity, or is the slider better for any additional reason(s)?
Experts like scientists slow down growth. Scientists tend to be the best experts for most of the game, but their net output is only 3-2=1. Irrigated and roaded plains have a net output of 2+1+2-2=3 prior to corruption and luxury rate.
 
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