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Netherlands Secretly Awesome?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by redwings1340, Dec 12, 2013.

  1. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    In the overall civ and UA threads, the Netherlands didn't fare too well, because their UA was blasted for being a worse version of the bazaar. I'm playing a game as them now though, and want to point out a nice advantage the Netherlands has over the bazaar.

    You can trade luxury resources from the very start of the game, and the Netherlands has a distinct advantage over Arabia before you meet many civs. In pangea maps you'll meet the other civs relatively early, but on continents or small continents, you may only have 2 or 3 trading partners for a long while. As Arabia, you get a ridiculous number of luxury resources, but you need to have enough partners to trade with to make getting this amount worthwhile. The Netherlands is really good for the early game, where you'll never need to worry about gold shortages, and can get a really good economy up and running super fast!

    I don't think that the Netherlands UA is necessarily better than the Bazaar, but it certainly has its advantages that I think people overlook. Once again, Civ proves to be an awesome game in terms of civ balance, as even the lesser played civs are really cool!
     
  2. Doctor Doom

    Doctor Doom Warlord

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    seabegger and the polder are pretty god tier in my opinion!
     
  3. cpm4001

    cpm4001 Goggleman

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    To answer the question posed in the title: Yes. What makes them great is that they can go tall or wide.
    *The UA is far more useful than people give it credit for, though it has been nerfed in BNW (in GnK getting luxes improved fast and then sold would get you a lot of gold and help you expand really fast.) However, even now it still means you can get more happiness from a 1-1 resource swap than you ordinarily would, letting you expand as much as you want.
    *The UU is super powerful. Enough said.
    *The UI makes Marshes and Flood Plains into awesomely amazing tiles. A few of these and you can make your cities super tall. If you're going wide, one of these will give a small city enough food and production (and gold) to keep you going for a while.
     
  4. Koiranputki

    Koiranputki Prince

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    Yes...I try to keep this in mind when I'm having some trouble playing some of the civ that I don't normally play...it isn't the game mechanic; it's my playing style for the particular civ.

    I think some of the complaints come out of people trying to play the game the particular way they want, rather than trying to figure out how to take advantage of the strengths of the particular civ they may be playing....

    Although I haven't played William for a while...[After reading this, maybe I'll give him another try in my next game...], I've had some really good games playing as the Dutch in the past.....I like the Sea Beggar... Of course, who wouldn't ...;)

    Also, I think the first thing you have to do as the Dutch is try to locate Amsterdam at a good coastal spot...but that isn't always the easiest thing to accomplish....
     
  5. Tinker

    Tinker Prince

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    I do enjoy playing the Netherlands a lot, too. Their UA is pretty boring, while pretty useful, but their UU and UI are terrific to play around with. They're not a top tier civilization by any stretch of the imagination, but, like Spain, Brazil and the new Germany, they're really fun nevertheless.
     
  6. mjjepper

    mjjepper Chieftain

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but the AI is unable to make use of Williams UA. I have never been able to make a deal for his last luxury.
     
  7. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    I find AIs normally let their final copy of something go for 3 luxuries. William will typically do it for 2 if he likes you.
     
  8. Aussie_Lurker

    Aussie_Lurker Deity

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    This is why I always have my games set to "Random Civilization"-so I'm not just playing my "favourites" all the time. It allows me to get a real sense for how good or "bad" various Civs are.

    Aussie.
     
  9. difioretin

    difioretin Chieftain

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    They're not a top tier civilization by any stretch of the imagination
     
  10. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    I definitely have had AI William willing to trade his last lux copy.
     
  11. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    Netherlands, like all the other civs have their uniqueness but it won't always work out the same way in the different maps that are generated. One map you can have flood plains, marshes or neither one in other maps.
    Arabia has the bazar and other religion spreading uniqueness which works out with religion. I don't think any civ is that awesome.
     
  12. Walter R

    Walter R Great Engineer

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    The first time I played as the Dutch (random roll) I hadn't a clue what I was doing - some would say 'so no change there then'!

    But seriously I think you make a great point, it is about learning how to play the civ. I haven't played them nearly often enough to get the best out of the civ; another one on my to-do list I'm afraid.
     
  13. VicRatlhead5199

    VicRatlhead5199 King

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    They're great to play tall. Trading your last copy of a luxury away has a hidden benefit. You'll often have your own luxuries requested for WLTK days. Then all you have to do is wait for that trade to end and you get your WLTK day. I get a lot more WLTK days with the Dutch than I do with other civs just because I'm trading my last copy a lot more. Add in the polders and you can get some real mega cities from those chain WLTK days.
     
  14. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    I suppose it depends on the definition of "top tier".

    In my book, where the goal is to be entertained, I'd say they're definitely "top tier". Interesting abilities that encourage you to use different play styles.
     
  15. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

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    Me too, except I reroll when I draw Alex.
     
  16. redwings1340

    redwings1340 Emperor

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    That isn't the only hidden benefit to this. City states also give you quests to get luxury resources in your trading network that you've traded away your last copy of. As soon as your deal with other civs expires, bam, suddenly you get +40 influence with the city states that give you the quest!

    Unfortunately, my game wasn't the best with the Netherlands in terms of polders/sea beggars. Despite taking Mecca and having a small continent to myself, I only had two marshes in my empire/continent (no flood plains), and I didn't take more than two Arabian cities (Mecca and one they forward settled on me) to avoid a severe warmonger penalty. The UA itself always gave me a bunch of additional gold though, and Polders are definitely the most unique looking improvement.

    On another note, I really like the recent warmonger penalty UI changes. I can really get a better sense of where I am in warmonger hate, and this helps me manage war diplomacy a lot better.
     
  17. headcase

    headcase Limit 1 Facepalm Per Turn

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    The Polder is a little too Spain-like for my taste, but overall it's a fun civ.
     
  18. Jampine

    Jampine Warlord

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    Holland is quite good, its one of those civs with a meh ability, but two great units/buildings/improvements. I guess the same could be said for the Huns, England and USA too :p
     
  19. Doktor Vic Tim

    Doktor Vic Tim King

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    The UA rewards reckless playstyle. In G&K, it meant a fast 250 gold in your pocket. In BNW, you're often guaranteed 7 gpt, and if you eventually make friends with someone, you have a good cash cow.

    Polders are polders, they work when you can build them, though it usually is a pity when you miss out on them due to few marshes and flood plains.
     
  20. georgie

    georgie Warlord

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    The ability is far from meh if you play it right. Granted, it got significantly nerfed with BNW doing away with lump sum trades with anyone.
     

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