Never had that happen!

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by bbrady413, Sep 21, 2017.

  1. bbrady413

    bbrady413 Chieftain

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    So I was at war with the Babylonians and Egyptians. The Babylonians came to me to negotiate. Here was what was agreed upon:

    A peace treaty, and an alliance versus the Egyptians, and I would give the Babylonians engineering. Cool.

    As soon as I click out of the negotiation screen, it says "The Babylonians and Egyptians have signed a peace treaty."

    Followed by

    "The Babylonians and Egyptians have signed a military alliance against us!"

    What the heck? Has anybody had this happen to them before?
     
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  2. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    That is extreme... :eek:
     
  3. bbrady413

    bbrady413 Chieftain

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    The entire purpose was to distract the Egyptian forces, the Babylonians aren't much of a threat....And I swiftly bruised the Egyptians, so I don't think it really affected the game. Just weird though how that happened.
     
  4. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone(cold)fish

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    I've certainly seen the AI-Civs do some dumb things in that vein. Favourite example: in my first (failed) attempt at a Domination-win (Vanilla, Standard Continents map, as the Romans, Monarch-level), I signed a late-game 7-for-1 Lux-export-import deal with Hiawatha, only for him to immediately (that interturn) land a couple of Cavs+Inf outside one of my towns. They then attacked it next turn (or I told them "Leave or declare", don't remember which), immediately cutting off their Lux-supply.

    Spoiler Perspective on the stupidity :
    At this point in the game, I was the exclusive owner of my Continent (which was big enough to spawn 6 Civs, but still just a little too small for an outright Dom-win), so I was already fully geared up for a land-war: I had a complete rail-net, a couple of towns pumping out 1T-Cruise-missiles, 1-2 Mech-Infantry guarding every coastal town, multiple Tanks/ Modern Armour, Armies, a large stack of Arty-on-rails, and a few Destroyers patrolling my coastal waters -- but no Transports. While I could have rush-built a fleet of them, I was bored of warring by that point, and didn't fancy the busy-work involved in an overseas invasion, so I'd just refocussed on a Space-win instead, and was getting teched-up fast. So as you might imagine, everything Hiawatha landed on my mainland died as soon as it got off his boats (if they hadn't already been bombed and sunk on the way in). Then, after he'd also lost all three of his island-towns just off my west coast (the ones I could reach easily with 2 rush-built Transports' worth of Tanks) -- and despite the fact that I also had 3 or 4 NukeSubs floating around, each with a TacNuke on board -- he nuked my Alu- and Uranium-tiles, earning instant retribution against his largest cities...
     
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  5. bbrady413

    bbrady413 Chieftain

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    At this point in the game, the Babylonians rep is completely destroyed. They've broken several deals. Egypt is also nearly destroyed, and the next country south of Egypt? Babylon (at least temporarily until my military cleans up the Egyptians).
     
  6. Theov

    Theov Deity

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    They got a free tech out of it - good move by them.
     
  7. Buttercup

    Buttercup King

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    This happens to me all the time, this is normal gameplay to me. Which is probably why a lot of people don't get the stuff I bleat on about as I likely play certain scenarios in such great detail and with such great repetition (of world options, not of playstyle) that certain stuff seems so obvious to me but might never occur to/happen to someone who always plays a completely different set of world options/playstiles.

    What I've found is that if the AI has decided its going to declare war on you, then there's nothing you can do about it. Regularly I've had an enemy fleet come close to my island and, without fail, you just get that feeling, the next turn there's a posse of invaders on my doorstep. Once I tried to see if I could pre-empt this via the diplomacy window. I tied them up with luxury trades, rights of passage and a set of tech exchanges, but no, they still landed their troops. I've found the only way to get them to turn round and go home is to ally with them against another civ. This situation comes under my banner of "Why is the AI programmed to attack no matter my or their circumstances - oh, it's to spice up the game a bit, ok".
     
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  8. Quintillus

    Quintillus Archiving Civ3 Content Supporter

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    Sounds like the Babylonians pulled a fast one to get Engineering from you.

    I've never had it happen that quickly though. There's certainly the "allies" who peace out a few turns in, but that's exceptionally quick.
     
  9. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    I also tested this a couple of years back with a .sav, where they were bound to attack me. But in my case not even an alliance against a third party stopped them from attacking me next turn... (Perhaps it depends on how far they already got?! In my case their units were already landed and next to one of my cities.)
     
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  10. vorlon_mi

    vorlon_mi Just One More Turn

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    I have also observed a correlation between the physical location of the AI's forces and it's willingness to not declare, or not accept an offer of peace. If the AI I'm fighting has some units it is sending to fight -- either thru neutral territory, or on boats -- it will often refuse to talk when I want to call a cease fire. I have to smash the invaders, and then it's willing to talk.

    Yes, I've also found that when it has troops on the way, not much will deter them from declaring. IIRC, in Civ IV, they even have an attribute for each AI leader that says, "willing to plan for war even when polite." I'm not sure if the Civ III leaders will all plot war against the human with good diplomatic relations. Some seem willing to backstab / be bribed into attacking the human for a cheap price.
     
  11. Theov

    Theov Deity

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    true, I've had time where an AI made a troop landing on my shores and it was impossible to prevent the AI from declaring the next turn.
     
  12. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

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    If you had a peace treaty with Babylon and and alliance with Egypt in one deal, then Babylon signing peace with Egypt canceled the whole deal including the peace treaty with you. So that was only one decision by Babylon, not two. Then the alliance with Egypt against you was another decision.

    Possibly also the very alliance between you and Babylon made it more interesting for Egypt to sign peace with Babylon, so maybe they were now willing to give or pay more for that than without the alliance. But that is guessing, I have no detailed insights into how the AI values deals.

    I normally don't do these types of deals in the IBT but only on my own turn. That makes it a bit less unpredictable. Still I find the AI quite unreliable in keeping alliances, I use them, and I've had them canceled after one turn, but after zero turns, that is indeed a rare one.
     
  13. lummoxybez

    lummoxybez Chieftain

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    Does the AI civ get their reputation trashed by this sort of behaviour?
    Seems unfair that they do it all the time whilst I am wary and careful about not breaking my agreements.
     
  14. tjs282

    tjs282 Stone(cold)fish

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    In theory, yes, but what a trashed trading-rep primarily means is that it's no longer possible for the offending civ to pay for up-front goods on an installment plan (e.g. paying gold-per-turn for a tech).

    Deals where both parties either do a straight swap, e.g. tech for tech, or map for map (possibly plus some lump-sum gold); or pay 100% per-turn goods (e.g. GPT for resources) are usually unaffected by trade-rep breakage, and this is the kind of deal that the AI tends to do anyway, at least at lower levels — so trade-rep breakage makes little difference to them.

    Doesn't stop them from making bad decisions though...

    Spoiler Most recent example... :
    In my present game (Random-Zulus, Emp, Large 40% Archi), it's the early Modern era, and my very long cold war with Hannibal (mostly fought by Rome on my behalf) had just gone hot. My Cav-Armies (I only just got MotorTrans, and have only built a couple of Tanks so far) were in the last stages of taking apart his empire, but he's also somehow managed to annoy everyone else, and has lost a Tundra-town to the Ottomans (the most advanced + powerful Civ). The same turn as Ozzie also took Nora out from under my nose (using an impressively co-ordinated ship-bombardment followed by Marine-assault!), I captured Sabratha(?) and Carthage, finishing Hanni off — but that left a couple of small stacks of Ottoman Tanks + Sipahi running loose on my continent, which made me rather nervous. But I couldn't simply DoW Ozzie, because he has an MPP with the Vikings, currently the 2nd most powerful Civ on the board (I'm a close 3rd, because my military is smaller — but I have many more towns).

    So I came up with a devilish plan: entice Ozzie into war (he was already Furious at me, and militarily stronger), and then get everyone else to fight him for me — primarily to sink his navy, because I've built very few ships myself.

    I had been careful to keep my trade-rep intact throughout this game, so I temporarily zeroed my SCI%-slider (giving me >700 GPT income), and signed MPPs with Scandinavia, England (4th) and the USA (5th) — the latter two sharing their continent with Ozzie (and formerly Hammurabi). Then I asked Ozzie whether he wanted to share his monopoly on Fission (which he got as his freebie; he's already built both UN and Manhattan) or Computers (which I had already partly researched, with a SETI prebuild 8T from completion), but he wouldn't sell either of them, so I asked about AmphibWar instead: he was willing to sell that for my WMap and ~225 GPT. Then I told him to leave or declare, and — even though he had only a single Inf on my land at that point — he went ahead and DoW'd me!

    I immediately destroyed all his Tanks + Sipahi I could reach in neutral territory, then ended the turn. During the IBT, I lost 1 of the 2 defending Infantries in one of my Carthaginian-captures to a combined Bomber + Sipahi attack; and 3 just-promoted elite Tanks (which were left damaged and in the open) to his remaining Tanks + Sipahi (1 defeated). His first bombing-run activated my MPPs, and since Lizzie already had an MPP with Hiawatha (who wouldn't bite when I offered, not even for >100 GPT), Ozzie was now at war with the Iroquois as well. Because everyone was now on my side, I was free to capture both the towns Ozzie held on my continent: in the meantime, he's fighting 5 of the 8 Civs remaining (he's not going to win any UN votes in the foreseeable future!), 4 of whom can easily get troops onto his lands, and I ended up paying nothing for AmphibWar (which I might still be able to use as trade-bait).

    Even better, Lizzie finished researching Computers herself, reducing its cost, and War Happiness allowed me to lower LUX% and increase SCI%, so I now also have it, allowing me to switch my Palace-prebuild to SETI (now due in 5T), and start on Miniaturisation (for Internet). I also promptly sold Comps to Ragnar for >5000 gold (plus ~50 GPT, plus some other trifles), which let me instantly upgrade all my mainland Infs to MechInf (I have SunTzu). And best of all, my trade-rep is still intact.

    And soon, PolandZululand will into Spaaaaaace!
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  15. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    do you really think that this applies to AI-AI-relationships and -deals as well? i am pretty sure that the whole trashing of trading-rep only applies to the HI player...
    t_x
     
  16. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    How would you measure that? For trading between AIs severe discounts do apply, that might mitigate the effects of trashed reputation to levels that are hard to notice.
     
  17. templar_x

    templar_x usually walks his talks

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    well, you can, because if the same rules would apply like AI-HI, then no "gpt for hard goods"-trades should be possible with trashed trade-reputation. sometimes however you find, that suddenly, after you e.g. make one AI (that you made break deals before already...:mischief:) declare on another AI, suddenly has lots of gpt available that it did not have a minute before. and in some cases it is pretty sure it was formerly paid to that other AI nation for some technology, for example. which should never be possible with busted trade-reputation, no matter how large the AI-AI trade discount might be.
    i simply do never see any signs that the trade reputation plays any role between AIs, thus i assume that these rules are programmed for the human player only.
    t_x
     
  18. Kirejara

    Kirejara King

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    I can confirm templar_x observation about KI trading with each other.

    Also despite their constant snake attacks (moving troops into foreign territory and then attack without declaration of war) the KI is still signing right of passage (ROP) with any other KI, that had done it before.

    If a human player would even forget a single worker in foreign territory before declaring war, the KI will never forgive and will never again signing a ROP.

    So it is clearly a double standard to the judgement of behavior by players and KI.

    And so is handling trade and diplomatic reputation for other KI as if nothing happenend (even if the trade partner is contantly breaking treaties), while at the same time a human trade partner has to be very carefully as he/she is never ever forgiven.

    Slightly OT: Thats why I have removed the maintenance cost from harbours. I was tired of getting my trade reputation getting blown, by a KI that is unable to pay for its harbour.

    "You stupid human did not deliver the spice to us! It is all your fault and we will tell everyone else, that you stopped delivering us, just because we have no longer a harbour for your trade ships!"
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
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