Never send an army to do a Great Leaders job

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Buecephalus, Feb 1, 2002.

  1. Buecephalus

    Buecephalus Bolo Mark XXV

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    Does anyone use armies? I've played a ton of games and I have yet to use an army created with a great leader. I always save them for Sistine Chapel and J.S. Bach's Cathedral. Once I saved a leader for 5000 years to build Hoover Dam 'cause I only had one city on a river in my entire empire. Are armies that great? I can't see the difference between an army and a good stack of Infantry mixed with tanks. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but IMHO the best use of leaders is rush building wonders.
     
  2. cephyn

    cephyn Kubo

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    as in the other thread, i have to agree here. Why build a slow, only slightly more powerful unupgradeable unit when you can have a wonder!

    Even the computer can't find a good use for armies -- ive never had one defeat me. huge masses of units thrown at my cities will make them fall, but never an army.
     
  3. Buecephalus

    Buecephalus Bolo Mark XXV

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    Exactly. Anyone disagree with us?
     
  4. Hurricane

    Hurricane Sleeping Dragon

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    I think this was being unnecessarily careful. It´s not that hard to get leaders, and having one sitting around doing nothing makes getting a second one next to impossible. So only save leaders if you are at peace.

    I usually build one army to get the wonders. For me armies are only good when you put 4 mech inf in them and plan to invade another island. This army can take a lot of punishment.
     
  5. loki

    loki Warlord

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    I disagree with you. I always use my first leader to build an army. Then have this army be victorious one time, and then you can build the heroic epic and the military academy. This will increase your chances to get other great leaders which you can use to build wonders. Seems to be the perfect trade off for me.

    As to get two GL at the same time, it's possible. I have done it with the egyptians once, during "my great conquest of the world".

    loki
     
  6. Ironikinit

    Ironikinit Prince

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    If you're militaristic and plan on fighting a lot, build the army. If you're a builder, use leaders to get wonders.

    The reasoning is that leaders are pretty easy to get if you're militaristic and fighting all the time, and

    You can take wonders away from other civs pretty easy. Why bother building them when you have the strongest military in the game.
     
  7. Cerryl

    Cerryl Warlord

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    I almost ALWAYS use my first GL to rush production of the Forbidden Palace, I don't think I've ever waited the entire 300 turns to complete it.
     
  8. Moulton

    Moulton Monarch

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    My preferred pattern would be: build an army first, then wonders. If you know it will be a long time before you see a wonder, then another army. Armies are overkill against individual units, but great defense against a stack of attackers . THey also open cities better than individual units. A stack of knights or cav may be enough to take a city, yes--I just took out 30 Aztec cities that way, but I would like to have had an army or two. One of his cities took 12 Cavalry attacks to take out one lone rifleman.

    In this game, however, I have been at war, seems like forever. Hve to look to see when they started.... and I did not declare or instigate any of them. It is 1908 and got my first leader -- the forbidden Palace had been running for 175 turns already (Sigh of relief) Then another a few battles later. But the Aztecs are now gone, and peace reigns -- maybe. China , Rome and Iroq are all rattling sabres.... So I will build an army--looks like I will get a chance to use it...
     
  9. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    I completely agree. While I rarely use offensive armies after the middle ages, armies of infantry are nearly invincible until modern armor. In the middle ages, armies of knights or cavalry can be used to knock out the toughest defender in a city, and in ancient times, the value of an army of swordsmen should not be overlooked. Armies are not necessarily slow. They move at the rate of the slowest unit in its composition, but I rarely mix units in armies, except for mech infantry and tanks. One army will not change your military strength much, but once you have the military academy, and fortify an army of infantry in most of your border cities, you have little to fear from your opponents.

    My point is that the cumulative effects of using that first leader to build an army are greater than the effects of any one wonder. Your chances of getting more leaders is increased once you build the heroic epic, after building the military academy, several military strategies open up using multiple armies, and you usually gain an immediate military advantage with your first army. In addition, you can eventually build the Pentagon, which makes your armies even more powerful. I have to think that most people who claim that armies are next to useless are those who have not really used them.
     
  10. infanta

    infanta Chieftain

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    i use leaders to make as many armies as i can until after i get miltary tradition and can make my own (just games dont normally last that long)

    if i want wonders ill capture em or cripple the other civs so much with warfare they are incapable of making one

    as i rely on war to extort tech from other civs i got no real need of science and usually max tax rates

    i counter unhappiness with luxaries and units rather than improvements and wonders

    most of the time the only improvements or non military units i make is granaries and barracks

    occasionally a harbour

    armies in the early game are excellent city attackers as it effectively turns the units into fast attackers

    3 swordsmen in an army can take most cities up to middle ages without any real problems
     
  11. sealman

    sealman Hater of Babylonians

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    I turn the first GL into an army as soon as I get him, after that, all leaders I will try to save to build the wonders, I try to build as many wonders as possible in my capital and those leaders are a god send.

    In regards to my use of armies in game play, I tend to place defensive armies in all my key border cities. For offensive purposes, I send armies to attack cities before the rest of my troops, getting rid of that first tough defender and then let me stacks clean up the mess.

    Any island invastion will have an army at the vangard only becuse of the punishment that they can take.

    Has anyone attempted to make an army of Marines and land directly in a city?
     
  12. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    Yes. I was sorely disappointed. Marines lose their amphibious assault ability when you put them in an army. I believe this was a questionable design decision.
     
  13. LordAzreal

    LordAzreal Warlord

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    I've found that throughout the entire game, I've only needed to use one army. That army, when victorious will then allow me to build the Heroic Epic. Think about it. There is a much better chance that a Great Leader will emerge at the successful conclusion of a battle with the Heroic Epic than normal. This then means that more Great Leaders can be saved up to build more and more wonders. If you can get the Heroic Epic in ancient times, it can be a huge advantage when you want to build all of those excellent Industrial-Modern wonders immediately after you've discovered the requisite advance. Apart from getting you the Heroic Epic, however, armies are rather useless. Especially when you start building Modern Armour (which can be pretty much one-unit armies in their power).
     
  14. Dirk Aurel

    Dirk Aurel Warlord

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    Ok,I´m too late but wanted to comment that anyway,agree with all what has been said on the first army enabling you to build the Heroic Epic,increasing chances of more leaders to come etc. (they aren´t that rare anyway,just use up the ones you have)
    But why (ffs) does an army of marines lose it´s amphibious assault possibilty,yes it does make hardly any coastal city withstand,but isn´t that the point of an army?
    Am not so sure an army of four marines would actually have as much succsess attacking let´s say two Mech Inf with amphibious assault anyway.

    Change it please :D
     
  15. Ironikinit

    Ironikinit Prince

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    I do agree with you, Dirk, but just saying "change it, please" might not get results.

    When we come up with something that really should be changed, where should it be posted? Should it be posted at all or submitted via email?

    There's no guarantee that the problem of all marines armies not having shore assault ability is an easy fix, btw.
     
  16. tigerblow

    tigerblow Chieftain

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    ARMY IS USELESS
     
  17. BigBirdZ28

    BigBirdZ28 Fundamentalist in a Z28

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    Depending on the wonder, i'll build an army with my first.

    I like to play 2050 games so i'll plan to pump out armys after I get the Military Academy.

    Armys are great for engaging more advanced units.
     
  18. Woody

    Woody General

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    I have to agree with this, nothing like running around with 12-15 armies of four modern armor. You can take out those size 35 cities with 4 or 5 mech infintry in them without loosing a single unit and without lugging the artillery around.
     
  19. LayZMan

    LayZMan w/ Recliner at Desk

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    Um no.
    Victorious armies allow construction of Heroic Epic and Military Academy. Any improvement on GL output % is welcomed and the 4 culture pts the Epic puts out is welcomed as well. The Military Academy alone is a good reason to use a GL to build an army.
    Once you have your victorious army, any army afterwards is optional. Like eyrei started, an army of infantry is damn near invincivble until modern armor. On top of that, one infantry stack can defend loads of artillery because for the most part the AI is afraid to attack an army in the open field. Don't get me started on usefulness of mobile armies in Medieval period. Taking out that top musketman in a size 12 city is a job for the army. My first GL is reserved for the FP though. It is THE must have wonder of them all, even above the Sistine Chapel, Bach Cathedral and Hoover Dam (my top 3).
     
  20. Umask077

    Umask077 Socialist at large

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    The last 3 games ive played Ive built the army, Used it, and then build the military academy. (last time in the same city with iron works). Now this is cool and all but the last game I ended up with 9 armys fortified in that city with no units in them cause armys are just generally dumb. Maybe im not making good use of them but they seem lame, Expensive, and non upgradeable. Doesnt seem like a good value to me. I think ill keep my leaders from building wonders from now on.
     

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