xienwolf
Deity
Kinda sounds like Civ 3 where certain units (mainly archer) could get 1 free attack against anyone attacking their stack, even if they won't be the defender
New Archery units!
- Thread starter Playciv2948
- Start date
Roghar
Warlord
I like the idea of giving archers in a city slow xp - presumably the archery range could give it to them. That way they keep improving gradually, which addressees the xp issue. Used as defenders enough city garrison promotions would make them worthwhile
Their other main weakness is lack of metal promotions, they make a huge difference especially to the earlier melee units. I think the Drill promotion needs to do a bit more for them to balance that, hopefully drill will be revised when Morale is introduced, which should balance them out nicely
Their other main weakness is lack of metal promotions, they make a huge difference especially to the earlier melee units. I think the Drill promotion needs to do a bit more for them to balance that, hopefully drill will be revised when Morale is introduced, which should balance them out nicely
Collateral damage and a high withdrawal chance would give them a neat infantry-attack-support role (although they'd be duplicating half the functionality of catapults).
Withdrawal on units with a move of 1 is interesting, as it's only worthwhile if they're part of a combined arms stack or already defending a city. However with mobility promotions so easily available, the danger would be that archers would replace cavalry as well....
Withdrawal on units with a move of 1 is interesting, as it's only worthwhile if they're part of a combined arms stack or already defending a city. However with mobility promotions so easily available, the danger would be that archers would replace cavalry as well....
2 ideas... for what they're worth ...
1) the civ3 mechanism that xienwolf remebered everyone may be the good solution :
when in a stack, any archery unit (save the one defending) can fire on attacking units ; per turn : once per defending archer per turn, each attacking unit can be attacked only once.
(think of it as a 1-2 1st strike! : 1st LB defends, 2nd LB has a free shot)
2)archers, while defending, would give a coll damage on the attacking stack.
==> ie, if you have a huge defending stack of archer, you can repel any huge attaking stack. (maybe with an additional archer-limited promo-line)
1) the civ3 mechanism that xienwolf remebered everyone may be the good solution :
when in a stack, any archery unit (save the one defending) can fire on attacking units ; per turn : once per defending archer per turn, each attacking unit can be attacked only once.
(think of it as a 1-2 1st strike! : 1st LB defends, 2nd LB has a free shot)
2)archers, while defending, would give a coll damage on the attacking stack.
==> ie, if you have a huge defending stack of archer, you can repel any huge attaking stack. (maybe with an additional archer-limited promo-line)
I totally agree with this. Archer units should not have to move when they attack. Ideally I`d love to see a ranged attack of 2 squares (like fireball but with a little hail of arrows graphic). Promotions/Elven units could extend the range by one. Crossbows would be stronger but would not have a ranged capacity (only adjacent squares). I`d also like to see archer units get a strength bonus for attacking from hills or fortifications.
jenks
Prince
Best idea on here imo due to the flavour it addsto unit development and what is frankly a pretty dull building otherwise, say each archer in a town with an Archery range has a 5% chance of gaining 1 XP per turn spent fortified in city, I think it would have to be quite low like that to prevent exploits.
.... I would be concerned as to whether the AI would train its archers up before sending them to defend free-range cities ...
and anyway I still dont think its quite enough. For me Archers and the archer tree should quite simply be made cheaper to produce than the Axeman / Champion line (say 50 hammers / 60 hammers and reducing the tech costs for the archery line somewhat).
jenks
Prince
Aside from simply reducing production cost by 15% or so ...
I would second all of those suggestions before creating any 'new promotions' or duplicating the catapult colateral damage / barrage functions with the archer.
I would also consider adding a relevant building function if it is possible
City Wall to be : + 25% city defense, + 25 % city defense for archers
DharmaMcLaren
Warlord
The scale seems a bit unrealistic, given that a single square can contain a city - archers should be able to shoot across two or three cities?
what if first strikes were rebalanced so you only get them if you've got movement left?
then drill could be shortend a promotion and lead to a promotion which gives +movement, as well as blitz
(attacking puts most archers at 0, and movement is restored at the end of your turn)
then drill could be shortend a promotion and lead to a promotion which gives +movement, as well as blitz
(attacking puts most archers at 0, and movement is restored at the end of your turn)
all i ask is to remove the "chance" from drill ....
most other promos were doubled , drill is the same but only gives a 50% chance of working. lets have first strikes not get a double chance to fail.
also .... for colateral damage .... lets just make archers have a chance to block it totally
most other promos were doubled , drill is the same but only gives a 50% chance of working. lets have first strikes not get a double chance to fail.
also .... for colateral damage .... lets just make archers have a chance to block it totally
It would't necessarily be a duplicate of the catipult if each were made for a different purpose. The catapult could be nerfed to only cause collateral damage and withdraw when attacking into a city or a fort tile. Archers could be set up only cause collateral damage and withdraw when attacking from a city or fort tile. The archer ability might be available as an promotion instead of as a standard ability to make it less prone to abuse (the player would have to choose between upgrading between the collateral damage line or the city defense line).
I think that the main reason that archers are ignored by many players is because the warriors are very effective at defending defending cities early on. In vanila and early versions of FfH, warriors had 2 hp. Archers are availabe as an early tech path to get a unit that car actually defend well.
Many players complained that early barbarians were decimating their warriors very easily. The warrior now has 3 hp and a defensive bonus in cities. Warriors that are promoted through early city defense are later upgraded into stronger melee units (as well as getting metal promotions). Warriors defend cities almost too well now. There really is no reason to get archers when a warrior with bronze can defend almost as well and attacks much better.
I think that a lot of the recommendations in this thread have a lot of merit to improving the archer unit. I would also recommend a minor change to the tech tree. Standard archers should come earlier and be cheaper to research then they are now. The city defense promotion should come with the same tech as archers (instead of warfare). The city raider promo alone is enough to make warfare worthwile to research. Stacking the city defense promo with the archer unit would researching them more essential to players instead of a wasted tech path.
Many players complained that early barbarians were decimating their warriors very easily. The warrior now has 3 hp and a defensive bonus in cities. Warriors that are promoted through early city defense are later upgraded into stronger melee units (as well as getting metal promotions). Warriors defend cities almost too well now. There really is no reason to get archers when a warrior with bronze can defend almost as well and attacks much better.
I think that a lot of the recommendations in this thread have a lot of merit to improving the archer unit. I would also recommend a minor change to the tech tree. Standard archers should come earlier and be cheaper to research then they are now. The city defense promotion should come with the same tech as archers (instead of warfare). The city raider promo alone is enough to make warfare worthwile to research. Stacking the city defense promo with the archer unit would researching them more essential to players instead of a wasted tech path.
onedreamer
Dragon
You can invent whatever promotions you want or change the tech tree however you want, Archers will stay useless anyways because they are inferior to melee units in attack, and their defense potential doesn't compensate enough. To put it in simple words, Archery units should be immune to collateral damage, this for 2 reasons:
1- historically, Archers wouldn't stay in the range of the opponents archers. Meh. Their role was to strike infantry while this was marching/charging in between these 2 lines.
2- it's just a cheap Civ4 tactic. To take WHICHEVER superdefended fortified city you just need a small stack of well protected catapults/trebuchets. Nothing will stand. In Civ4 you will at least -likely- loose these units (when you don't, they have a chance to become extremely overpowered), fast to rebuild anyways. In Bts they at least introduced flanking damage, so you can sacrifice your cavalry units in order to take out enemy artillery. In FFH2 siege units are simply out of any balance consideration. Catapults have 80% base retreat chance on attack, which not only means they will soften up defenses, but they will even survive and be promoted for the next siege. And the flanking mechanism doesn't exist.
I really think the staff should freeze development of new stuff for a moment now, since we have a version with plenty of features in, and start working on balance, which is much needed right now. And archery/siege are among the top 5 of the balance list.
1- historically, Archers wouldn't stay in the range of the opponents archers. Meh. Their role was to strike infantry while this was marching/charging in between these 2 lines.
2- it's just a cheap Civ4 tactic. To take WHICHEVER superdefended fortified city you just need a small stack of well protected catapults/trebuchets. Nothing will stand. In Civ4 you will at least -likely- loose these units (when you don't, they have a chance to become extremely overpowered), fast to rebuild anyways. In Bts they at least introduced flanking damage, so you can sacrifice your cavalry units in order to take out enemy artillery. In FFH2 siege units are simply out of any balance consideration. Catapults have 80% base retreat chance on attack, which not only means they will soften up defenses, but they will even survive and be promoted for the next siege. And the flanking mechanism doesn't exist.
I really think the staff should freeze development of new stuff for a moment now, since we have a version with plenty of features in, and start working on balance, which is much needed right now. And archery/siege are among the top 5 of the balance list.
Tarquelne
Follower of Tytalus
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2001
- Messages
- 3,718
I agree that archers are underused.
Short version: What Grey Fox suggested on page 1.
Longer version: I think some sort of no-move and/or low-risk minor collateral damage ability is the best way to go. Taking some of the edge off an attacking force, hopefully without losing any fortification bonuses they've built up, would be a fitting role for archers. Linking it to buildings present and terrain would be even better. Bonus with Walls and/or Hill, bigger bonus with Castle, for example.
I thought the ranged collateral damage ability in AoI (Barrage?) was overpowered... but I only played through it once. It work well and once the ability was in the game the #s could be fiddled with.
if Catapults aren't "nerfed" then resistance to collateral damage would be an excellent role for archers. But I'd rather see Catapults toned down.
Short version: What Grey Fox suggested on page 1.
Longer version: I think some sort of no-move and/or low-risk minor collateral damage ability is the best way to go. Taking some of the edge off an attacking force, hopefully without losing any fortification bonuses they've built up, would be a fitting role for archers. Linking it to buildings present and terrain would be even better. Bonus with Walls and/or Hill, bigger bonus with Castle, for example.
I thought the ranged collateral damage ability in AoI (Barrage?) was overpowered... but I only played through it once. It work well and once the ability was in the game the #s could be fiddled with.
if Catapults aren't "nerfed" then resistance to collateral damage would be an excellent role for archers. But I'd rather see Catapults toned down.
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
Maybe archers could get a barrage spell only usable in a city, with 2 range, that deals 5% damage to a limit of 80% and have a very small change of gaining 1 exp based on the number of units in the stack it hit (like 2-3% chance per unit) that way archers can help protect against pillaging if they have support units and allow them to get exp in the process
The best way to ensure that archers are used earlier is to make them available earlier. Longbows should not receive the same attentions, of course, due to the Amurites and their Firebow unit. Those things are powerful enough already. Perhaps Archery ranges should work a bit like the bowyer building, providing extra xp for archery units built in the city, as well as being a requirement, but again we find even more easy xp for Amurites and their wacky, wacky longbow replacement.
Buffing up drill would be a very bad idea, as many recon and mounted units take the drill track for Blitz. Who wants an HN Shadow with Blitz and 392 first strikes obliterating his army one unit at a time? Not to mention what Tasunke could do with it...
Buffing up drill would be a very bad idea, as many recon and mounted units take the drill track for Blitz. Who wants an HN Shadow with Blitz and 392 first strikes obliterating his army one unit at a time? Not to mention what Tasunke could do with it...
Jorgen_CAB
Warlord
I think that the balance between units in the game is rather good but as several people here have said some units are not good enough, archers being one of them.
I do understand the concept of archers being defensive, because they were so even historically most of the time, harassing enemy infantry with bow fire. Though, in my opinion archers should also get 80% withdrawal rate, the same as catapults and siege weapons and cap them at maximum 50% damage. This way they can get some experience in offensive combat too.
Also giving archers access to bronze and iron weapons would be quite realistic and have them start at 2/4 instead of 3/5 would make more sense to me. They should not be immune to collateral damage but get reduced damage from it.
The drill promotion must be a little stronger.
And for god sake, give all cavalry a -40% city attack (I do in my games, they are quite useful anyway) so archers really can defend cities well. Cavalry should not be good at attacking settlements of that size unless they are really numerically superior.
I do understand the concept of archers being defensive, because they were so even historically most of the time, harassing enemy infantry with bow fire. Though, in my opinion archers should also get 80% withdrawal rate, the same as catapults and siege weapons and cap them at maximum 50% damage. This way they can get some experience in offensive combat too.
Also giving archers access to bronze and iron weapons would be quite realistic and have them start at 2/4 instead of 3/5 would make more sense to me. They should not be immune to collateral damage but get reduced damage from it.
The drill promotion must be a little stronger.
And for god sake, give all cavalry a -40% city attack (I do in my games, they are quite useful anyway) so archers really can defend cities well. Cavalry should not be good at attacking settlements of that size unless they are really numerically superior.
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