1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

New Beta - September 17th (9-17)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2016
    Messages:
    689
    I don't think Temple of Artemis granting a granary is necessarily an issue. It doesn't need the granary to be competitive; it's just a small bonus for those who plan for it. I wouldn't be opposed to changing it either, but I'm a bit wary of ToA granting a free barracks, because that would drastically change its role in the early game, and would be very difficult to balance with the knobs we have. (I don't like the idea of increasing its cost; that would be another major change to its role, and all the late-ancient wonders should have consistent costs IMO.)

    If the granary is really an issue, I would suggest removing the free building altogether and increasing its base yield instead. (+3 food?) There's no rule that says a wonder has to grant a building, and the ancient wonders aren't really consistent in what they give anyway.
     
    Aldebaran1997, Gokudo01 and Txurce like this.
  2. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,500
    I too believe a free barracks would be too strong. I'm in favour of either increased base yields or giving a free shrine, council or sth small like that.
     
  3. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,895
    Location:
    Lebanon
    All of the ancient and classical wonders provide a free building, unit(s), or GW, so it not providing something would be inconsistent in itself. The entire point of the free buildings is to mitigate the cost of the wonder so early in the game.

    Actually don't almost all wonders provide something for free?

    I still think Barracks is fine since anyone who rushes Military Theory (almost always after Pottery) is going to build a Barracks anyway, and at least this way they don't potentially waste hammers on a Granary.

    The effective production difference between a Granary and Barracks is potentially smaller or at least equal to the opportunity cost of having not built it. (IE the effective food you lost if you did not build Granary OR production wasted from having built it >= effective production from Barracks gained especially so early in the game). So I would argue that there is functionally little difference other than the Barracks being more consistent.

    It also frankly makes a lot of sense thematically.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  4. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    512
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheonan, South Korea
    I'm not the opposite of you, but I think changing WW's role also doesn't matter likewise what you said about additional building. There are lots of buildings and wonders changed their roles in VP such as Pyramid, Forge, etc. All of them were admitted naturally by players and I believe they do what they suppose to do as G's intend. ToA is same to me. But I don't like its inconsistency with other ancient era WWs. I doubt a free barrack from ToA really change the ancient balance or specific early strat and also I don't care about balance than fun to play. So I like the idea of giving a free barrack or other things anyway.
     
  5. Legen

    Legen King

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2015
    Messages:
    846
    There isn't any rule saying a wonder has to provide a building of the same tech level:

    Statue of Zeus provides a Forge (a Classical era building in Ancient Era)
    Great Wall provides a Wall
    Himeji Caste provides a Castle
    Hagia Sophia provides a Temple
    Red Fort provides an Arsenal (700 :c5production: Renaissance wonder, 1000 :c5production: Industrial building)

    If anything, it makes more sense for Temple of Artemis to provide a Temple. I don't think it would be balanced, but it's more fitting than a barracks or a granary.
     
  6. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,895
    Location:
    Lebanon
    You correctly mention the other Wonders that provide buildings from previous tech tiers. However, Great Wall, Himeji Castle, and Hagia Sophia also provide Great People. Temple of Artemis does not. It is still an inconsistency.

    Actually I'd argue that those wonders probably need to be looked at too. However, the opportunity cost of not constructing those buildings beforehand though is much smaller than that of Granary with Temple of Artemis, given how early in the game one would still be. So they don't really need to be changed really as those free buildings seem more about flavor than impact.

    Again the issue isn't JUST inconsistency.

    1) This is VERY early in the game where individual hammers mean a lot more.
    2) Granary is from Pottery which is arguably the most essential tech in the Ancient Era due to Settlers. Pottery is also not a prerequisite to Military Theory so the delta between researching Pottery and Military Theory is very large given the research times early in the game.
    3) Granary is a tile improvement building that is heavily prioritized in the capital. Walls and Castles are not comparable (in the capital) in most situations (not saying they're unimportant).
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  7. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,280
    Location:
    Venice, California
    I disagree with your definition of "inconsistency." But if it were one... so what?

    That aside, you may consider that the game is trying to tell you something: there are better builds than a granary early on in the game. If you gun for ToA, you probably shouldn't have already built a granary, so no problem.

    Now if you're talking about already having built a granary because the game's a little more advanced, and ToA is still around, and you say "What the hell, I'll give it a shot because I have nothing else to do"... then I don't think you need to be recompensed in any way.
     
    ashendashin likes this.
  8. Legen

    Legen King

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2015
    Messages:
    846
    Great People aren't a rule either, you can add Bletchley Park (Atomic wonder, Modern building Research Lab) and CN Tower (Information wonder, Modern building Broadcast Tower in all cities), both of which don't grant a free Great Person.

    About Artemis, the matter seems more about the Wonder's power than about the hammer spent. +10% :c5food: in all cities is damn strong no matter what strategy you have in mind. The granary seems more for the case you build the wonder in a secondary city, likely with the help of a Great Engineer; makes sense for someone wanting the +15% :c5production: on ranged units in his or her military-focused city. Tradition civs should be able to pull that off, especially with the reworked Goddess of Beauty pantheon.

    edit: typo
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  9. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    520
    I agree with giving it a free barracks. Can compensate by taking away 1 culture and/or the gpp.
     
  10. saamohod

    saamohod King

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    603
    Location:
    Unoccupied Ukraine
    My pathfinders get two opportunities to choose promotion after the third promotion fires. Intended or bug?
     
  11. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost King

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2016
    Messages:
    689
    Did you get the XP from map ruins? That could give the pathfinder enough XP to level up twice.
     
  12. Funak

    Funak Deity

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2013
    Messages:
    9,127
    ToA is fine with the granary or without it. Not a fan of giving a barracks to an already powerful wonder.
     
  13. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    520
    I think it would make more sense gameplay wise if pyramids and temple of artemis switched places in the tech tree.

    This way you can rush military theory and bronze working as a war monger without missing a settler using pyramids.

    And temple of artemis is more likely to be able to delay the granary. Or it could give the herbalist for free instead.

    Im not sure about the thematics bit i have a hunch that pyramids and calendar are related so that wouldnt work.
     
  14. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,280
    Location:
    Venice, California
    I've downloaded this twice now, and only get through (6a) -- the last part is missing. Does anyone know why?
     
  15. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,895
    Location:
    Lebanon
    Literally the only wonder in the game that requires you to intentionally avoid a building from a previous nonrequisite tech tier for an extended period of time and people are still arguing it's not an inconsistency?

    Honestly I don't get the resistance. There's a 130 hammer difference on Marathon, which is significantly less than the food and growth you gain from the time you build Granary to the time you construct the wonder, even without any bonus resources.

    That's even assuming you rush Military Theory.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  16. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    520
    Nobody is arguing its not an inconsistency. The argument is that its balanced how it is so we should leave it be.
     
  17. Ziad

    Ziad Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,895
    Location:
    Lebanon
    Well it's not a fun mechanic that requires gaming the system to make efficient use of.

    The argument of inconsistency is a response to people proposing to just strip the Granary.

    Again, I don't see the imbalance by making it a Barracks. You either sacrifice hammers to build Granary anyway, sacrifice food to not build it and "save hammers", or spam settlers to justify not building a Granary for half the Ancient Era.

    Who would a free Barracks be OP for? A warmonger would-have already built untrained units. Someone who didn't build units would have built a Granary. Where is the OP?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  18. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,280
    Location:
    Venice, California
    Edit: got it to download.
     
    Aldebaran1997 likes this.
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,766
    Location:
    Beijing
    Its already very strong, and you are buffing it. Its not OP because of a military rush, it just becomes such an efficient source of hammers that I don't much reason not to build it

    PS- if you build a granary every game you should probably reconsider. Its a weak building if its not buffing those resource, the gold upkeep is a big negative IMO
     
  20. ShadedSkies

    ShadedSkies Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Messages:
    84
    I agree completely, despite considering ToA the second best ancient wonder. Personally I'd rather remove the free Granary altogether even without a buff to compensate, just to remove it from the equation. It's just annoying to get something you already built for free, or hold off on building something before someone else builds the wonder.
     

Share This Page