New Beta - September 17th (9-17)

[GodDamnItAlexander]

See on quick speed my experience is completely different.
I think ToA is fine with the granary. +10% food in all cities means you're going to be spamming settlers first (if you plan to conquer early and not settle then you would get SoZ). Well what's the point of having a granary if you're making settlers and and can't benefit from the extra food? So while you're making your settlers you're naturally learning techs as well, so it makes sense to go monument/shrine->hit 4/5 pop->settlers->military theory (while still making settlers)->artemis

I stopped playing recently because I realized the game is totally not balanced for the way I play it. I tried standard, but it just felt way too slow.

 

[arthurF]

Getting crashes this version

 

[saamohod]

Did you get the XP from map ruins? That could give the pathfinder enough XP to level up twice.

Nope, just regular XP by exploring territory. It happened it one game, I started another game and it happened again. Maybe if it happens again I'll report it to GitHub.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

See on quick speed my experience is completely different.
I think ToA is fine with the granary. +10% food in all cities means you're going to be spamming settlers first (if you plan to conquer early and not settle then you would get SoZ). Well what's the point of having a granary if you're making settlers and and can't benefit from the extra food? So while you're making your settlers you're naturally learning techs as well, so it makes sense to go monument/shrine->hit 4/5 pop->settlers->military theory (while still making settlers)->artemis

I stopped playing recently because I realized the game is totally not balanced for the way I play it. I tried standard, but it just felt way too slow.

+10% is not only for the wide strat, but also very viable (maybe even better) to the tall strat. If you think this mod isn't balanced, than try other game options such as 43 civs (which you can't spam cities) or reducing cost mods (to quicken your game).

 

[CrazyG]

See on quick speed my experience is completely different.
I think ToA is fine with the granary. +10% food in all cities means you're going to be spamming settlers first (if you plan to conquer early and not settle then you would get SoZ). Well what's the point of having a granary if you're making settlers and and can't benefit from the extra food? So while you're making your settlers you're naturally learning techs as well, so it makes sense to go monument/shrine->hit 4/5 pop->settlers->military theory (while still making settlers)->artemis

I stopped playing recently because I realized the game is totally not balanced for the way I play it. I tried standard, but it just felt way too slow.

I used to like quick as well, but a few things just aren't balanced (and probably couldn't be). Standard has a pretty good balance between peaceful and economic play, and I find on epic or quick it gets warped

I really agree on the granary, usually I only build it after my first wave of settlers.

 

[GodDamnItAlexander]

+10% is not only for the wide strat, but also very viable (maybe even better) to the tall strat. If you think this mod isn't balanced, than try other game options such as 43 civs (which you can't spam cities) or reducing cost mods (to quicken your game).

If I wanted less space on the map I could just play small with 10 civs, don't need 43. And I'm not going to use cost reducing mods because it screws with the balance.

This just goes to show how badly standardization is needed. How can the mod ever achieve any degree of balance when Gazebo is getting feedback from players who play with wildly different settings? It's already hard enough as it is to balance a game like Civ with its insane amount of variables.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

If I wanted less space on the map I could just play small with 10 civs, don't need 43. And I'm not going to use cost reducing mods because it screws with the balance.

This just goes to show how badly standardization is needed. How can the mod ever achieve any degree of balance when Gazebo is getting feedback from players who play with wildly different settings? It's already hard enough as it is to balance a game like Civ with its insane amount of variables.

Pal, plz chill. Idk what do you expect to this mod, but I want to play this mod for fun and fresh game, not for balanced and competitive game. This mod is completely non-profit and G achieved incredibly well-balanced state with all those new things and variety of game settings, imo. Could you imagine how hard to develop mods for several years without being paid?

 

[Ziad]

Its already very strong, and you are buffing it. Its not OP because of a military rush, it just becomes such an efficient source of hammers that I don't much reason not to build it

That's not a reasonable argument. All the Ancient Wonders provide buildings (or units) that are a significant portion of their hammer cost. Pyramids, Mausoleum, and Statue of Zeus come to mind.

Pyramids gives you a free Settler, which is just as expensive as a tier 2 building. That's ignoring the stalled growth saved which is FAR more than ToA food gives you in the capital for a very long time.

Statue of Zeus provides a Forge making up a whopping 90% of the build cost (and that's ignoring the extra production from Forge).

Mausoleum provides a free Stone Works which is a Tier 2 building. That's on top of potentially building it in cities with NO prerequisite resources but giving you the ability to send hammers to your cities very early in the game. Then there's +10% production in the city you build it in (requires WLTKD).

Are you saying that Temple would be objectively the most powerful? That's just not true. I'm not sure why you value 10% Food above any of the above. It's definitely strong but for what situation?

10% Food in the early game can be powerful but that depends on your strategy. If you're going warmonger you actually want to limit growth and city damage + city production is more valuable immediately. You want Tile Improvement increases. Pyramids tile improvement can be a lifesaver if you have a Jungle start, and it can be argued that faster improvements -> faster development for cities.

Again, WHO would it impact? In what situation other than warmonger is the free Barracks instead of a Granary most immediately effective? Just arguing that it would be "more powerful" makes little sense with no context.

Do you mean much later in the where cities are producing 100+ food or the super late game when food becomes scarce? Then why are you worried about a very minor additional impact on the early game?


----

I don't build a Granary in every game. The problem here is that I have to go out of my way to avoid building it in order to not waste hammers on it, made even more awkward if there's a bonus resource nearby. It's the only wonder in the game that makes me do this.

Anyway I think I've said enough on the topic. I understand where you're coming from but I think you overestimate the impact.

 

[CrazyG]

That's not a reasonable argument. All the Ancient Wonders provide buildings (or units) that are a significant portion of their hammer cost. Pyramids, Mausoleum, and Statue of Zeus come to mind.

I don't see how its unreasonable. If something is already very strong why would you make it stronger? Even if you don't get the granary it can be a really good wonder. I'm fine with removing the granary, and I would be fine adding something else, but not a barracks. Its seems way better than other the other wonders with that effect. Maybe a free archer would be a better choice. Or just an instant yield of food when completed.

On the Statue of Zeus, I frankly don't like that wonder's forge because of the forge interacts with copper. If you start with 4 copper/iron in you capital and build it you basically just win and it feels really cheesy to me. Copper is already a great monopoly to have without this gimmick

 

[Workerspam]

And temple of artemis is more likely to be able to delay the granary. Or it could give the herbalist for free instead.

Free herbalist in place of the granary is my favorite suggestion so far.

As has already been pointed out the granary-ToA pairing may be balanced but it is awkward in a way unlike all other Ancient era wonders (and only the Great Wall is in a similar position in Classical). But I'm in agreement that replacing it with barracks would make it too good; it's primary effect is arguably the best of the Ancient Wonders with it's empire wide reach, impact throughout eras, and usefulness in all situations (outside zero growth strategies). Adding one of the most versatile early buildings on top of that would be a bit much.

Hence, herbalist. More niche than granary but on the same tech level as ToA and serves a similar thematic role.

 

[GodDamnItAlexander]

Pal, plz chill. Idk what do you expect to this mod, but I want to play this mod for fun and fresh game, not for balanced and competitive game. This mod is completely non-profit and G achieved incredibly well-balanced state with all those new things and variety of game settings, imo. Could you imagine how hard to develop mods for several years without being paid?

Some of us play for the challenge of winning, others play for the farmville experience. Civ VP still has huge singleplayer unfulfilled potential, and has all the foundations for a multiplayer competitive game.

 

[Stalker0]

I like the idea of the Herbalist. I would also be fine with a counsel as well.

 

[randomnub]

Even with the crappy granary, I can see myself going for ToA in many situations. Change to Barracks and remove the GE point/culture would be okay anyway.



Now about Halicarnassus... that's a wonder that lost pretty much all usefulness. Spare me the 'big tradition capital sending trade routes to smaller towns' niche role because if I spot no stone in capital there's no way I derail tech path, spend 185 hammers, risk losing it, at the same time giving up on any fair chance to get Artemis/Pyramids/ probably neither Hanging Gardens if not on low difficulty and get ... 2C1P, 10% production during WLTK? Probably worth less hammers than the wonder increased price for the remaining of the game. At the same Hammer cost I can build two workers that are going to help lesser towns more than 1-2 trade routes (for which I have yet to research the techs, at the opposite end of tech tree, and I'd lose food/science/culture/gold/diplomatic benefits I could get from other routes anyway).

If I have stones/marble in capital instead, I just go for standard stoneworks 10 times out of 10.

Hali just needs a decent secundary power: the culture on GP birth was nuts, but now I miss the vanilla +gold on quarries, +gold on GP birth.

 

[tu_79]

Question.
Who wants to plan for Temple of Artemis? +10% food is quite good in the long run, but it requires a play style that does not suffer from unhappiness (specially if we want that food for specialists). Faster production of ranged units is simply for flavour, nobody, except China, Maya and Incas, is going to mass produce ranged units for this to matter. The extra building, let's leave out for the moment.

I'd build ToA if I'm planning on making the best with the land I can peacefully settle and avoid all wars I can before Modern Age. This means I'm not bothering too much with producing settlers. My army would be mostly defensive, so it would have little experience.

Question.
Who can actually build ToA in time? It needs 4 policies, so even belining the tech, it still requires some culture and few cities, so Progress will have it tougher to build. Authority may build it, but I wonder how good can this wonder be in the long run in this case.

Question.
What buildings we may not have built yet, given the answers above, are useful for this strategy? In other words, what buildings we can't delay until the wonder is ready for building? Monument/shrine/council are surely already built. Granary and Barracks probably too.

Artemis is goddess of the hunt and pregnancy (+10% food), so giving a free Herbalist is both thematic and fits with gameplay.

 

[randomnub]

Question.
Who can actually build ToA in time? It needs 4 policies

2

In other words, what buildings we can't delay until the wonder is ready for building? Monument/shrine/council are surely already built. Granary and Barracks probably too.

If you unlock Military Theory and build a barrack before the ToA you're starting the wonder race with a fair good handicap, and not producing any military unit in the meanwhile anyway

 

[Txurce]

Now about Halicarnassus... that's a wonder that lost pretty much all usefulness. Spare me the 'big tradition capital sending trade routes to smaller towns' niche role because if I spot no stone in capital there's no way I derail tech path, spend 185 hammers, risk losing it, at the same time giving up on any fair chance to get Artemis/Pyramids/ probably neither Hanging Gardens if not on low difficulty and get ... 2C1P, 10% production during WLTK? Probably worth less hammers than the wonder increased price for the remaining of the game. At the same Hammer cost I can build two workers that are going to help lesser towns more than 1-2 trade routes (for which I have yet to research the techs, at the opposite end of tech tree, and I'd lose food/science/culture/gold/diplomatic benefits I could get from other routes anyway).

If I have stones/marble in capital instead, I just go for standard stoneworks 10 times out of 10.

Hali just needs a decent secundary power: the culture on GP birth was nuts, but now I miss the vanilla +gold on quarries, +gold on GP birth.

Second this point. It's much more balancing than diddling with ToA.

 

[Jordan Benjamin]

Am I the only one who has never been able to sucessfully bribe the a.i into declaring war on someone, offering a DoF or starting a defensive pact? The a.i seems incredibly stubborn to the point that these options might as well not even be available for me.

We can be on great terms but they'll always find an excuse to decline my diplomatic offers and then might offer me the exact same thing a turn or two later...

Almost as like a little kid not wanting to turn off the light when his mom tells him to so he turns it off a minute later in a petty showing of rebellion...

 

[randomnub]

Yes I gave up asking for a friendship or pact, if they want it they'll come ask you.

 

[Jordan Benjamin]

Yes I gave up asking for a friendship or pact, if they want it they'll come ask you.

I offered a defensive pact as Ghandi (with the second strongest military, tech leader) to pocatello who was dead last and an aggresive/expansive Ghengis as his neighbor. He said no. lol k.

 

[Stalker0]

One thing about Hallinaccarsus, you can build a stonework in a city with no stone. What's great about that is you can send production with internal trade routes....which you normally can't do without a workshop much later in the game.