New Beta Version - April 29th (4-29)

[Gazebo]

Hey all!

New beta inbound. The spy one!

Bugfixes
    Fixed minefield issue hurting own ships
    CTD fixes
    Fixed some build order issues
    Diplo AI tweaks
    Fixed errors with 'more GP' module
    
Balance
    Espionage
        New Espionage System!
            Spy Events replace tech/GW theft
            Spy Events for counterspies
            New overhauled UI
        Advanced Action 'random' system removed
            All elements of system, including building/wonder effects, removed
    Policies
        Industry
            Moved 2 TR to opener
            Moved 100% Train/Seaport to Division of Labor
            Moved Gold investment bonus to Protectionism
    Civs
        Bandeirantes - now 20 CS
    Terrain
        Desert speed restored - rough attr. now based on visibility

Online as of 3:30pm CST. Not savegame compatible.

Link: https://mega.nz/folder/2Jdw3aQT#Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA

Cheers,
Gazebo

 

[General_Drax]

Unexpected !

Thanks !

 

[Stalker0]

The Industry changes are interesting. +2 TR makes the opener much stronger than it was before (and opens up fun new christmas tree options), but you are losing out on the sweet extra production discount on your second policy until the end of the tree. My gut overall that this is a buff overall, but not as large as my initial reaction, definitely worth trying out.

Very happy to see that the rough Desert movement could be put back in but the promotion changes we wanted could be maintained, that is wonderful!

Clearly this one is all about spies, so time to dust off an England game and see how it goes


Also, is there anyway to get our computers to stop thinking the download is a super virus that will kill my computer? Both my browser wants to block the download, and then my computer doesn't want to install it. Now personally its a minor inconvenience, but I would imagine some people just thinking of trying out VP might get scared off by their system saying this is malware.

 

[Gazebo]

The Industry changes are interesting. +2 TR makes the opener much stronger than it was before (and opens up fun new christmas tree options), but you are losing out on the sweet extra production discount on your second policy until the end of the tree. My gut overall that this is a buff overall, but not as large as my initial reaction, definitely worth trying out.

Very happy to see that the rough Desert movement could be put back in but the promotion changes we wanted could be maintained, that is wonderful!

Clearly this one is all about spies, so time to dust off an England game and see how it goes


Also, is there anyway to get our computers to stop thinking the download is a super virus that will kill my computer? Both my browser wants to block the download, and then my computer doesn't want to install it. Now personally its a minor inconvenience, but I would imagine some people just thinking of trying out VP might get scared off by their system saying this is malware.

I’d need to buy a certificate for the EXE. which costs money. Fundraiser?

the production discount on seaport/TR was moved to top right policy, it isn’t at bottom. So you could get it second.

 

[Stalker0]

the production discount on seaport/TR was moved to top right policy, it isn’t at bottom. So you could get it second.

I was referring to the gold investment bonus moved to Protectionism.

Ok so here's a datapoint to get us started. I am playing as England. I started my spy in Monaco, and received 2 levels after 2 rigs (is that intended that CS rigs autolevel the spies as well?)

So now I've met Berlin, and its time to go to work! Berlin has a level 10 security (a note, my security is at a 1, mainly due to "economic value", but Berlin is a 10....seems fishy).

Here are my options, and then I'll walk through my thought process as to why I picked what I picked:

Option: Bonus (Turns Required | Identification % chance | Spy Kill Percent Chance)

• Disrupt Production: -250 (39 | 2 | 35)
• Gain Gold: +250 (34 | 2 | 33)
• Poison Well: -250 , -10 for 10 turns (31 | 5 | 33)
• Pillage Tiles: Pillage 1-2 regular tiles (46 | 16 | 44)
• Gain Science: +200 (31 | 8 | 33)
• Kidnap Specialists: -500 on GS, GE, GM. +2 yields from those specialists in my capital for 10 turns. (31 | 2 | 30)
• Target City Defenses: 25 dmg to city and garrison, city can't heal for 5 turns (31 | 13 | 52)
• Arm Local Populace (not available, city must be unhappy).

So my thinking.

In terms of identification, normally I don't care too much about that, so unless the gap is quite large I'm not going to care. 2 to 18% is not going to sway me. If it was 2 versus 70%....maybe.

Gold vs Science: the science is worth way more and I would get it faster. So gold is out, science is on the table.

Disrupt Production: This is a powerful nerf, I mean you are basically taking away a GE's worth of production to the city. But the issue is the time, I can't do a good timing with that many turns to try and target a wonder or something. So while it looks cool, it feels too unwieldy. If it had a weaker affect with a shorter timer (even if the kill chance was the same) I would consider it more.

Poison Well: Honestly this one is interesting. That is a lot of food to deny my nearest frienemy this early in the game, and its on the quicker side. Hmm, maybe.

Pillage Tiles: haha no. Turn time is way too long, kill chance way too high, benefit way too low. This one would have to guarrantee the pillage of a strategic resource for me to even think about. This one I consider unviable at the moment.

Kidnap Specialists: This early in the game no reason to consider it, seems more like a midgame thing (aka when you normally get spies) so I'll come back to it.

Target City Defenses: While not going to war any time soon, its an interesting bonus. Actually its that 25 dmg to the garrison that makes it really interesting....as timing a city hit to snipe the garrison can double your damage against the city. Definately will look at this one again.


So...its either Well Poison or Science. Tough call honestly, I'm going well poison to get it a shot!

 

[Stalker0]

So my spy power is higher than I expected (level 3 I thought was a 50% bonus). Is this an England thing?

Spoiler :

also, my first mission finished, and I kind of wish it just took me back to the spy screen or something. I honestly completely missed the mission happened, and probably wasted a few turns.

 

[Stalker0]

Ok 2nd mission, so I go for Berlin again, as all of Germany missions show full stars on his cities. But...the turns times now are much higher, 47 seems to be the normal. So is that because Berlin is on higher alert, or the duration changes through other means? I don't know...frustrating. But I decide to change my spy to see if its the former.

Update: So I tried changing the spy to a new city before I selected the mission for Berlin. Game did not like that, showed weird behavior and then crashed.

Update: Okay went back several turns to instead place the spy in another city. And it does look like all of my mission turns times have gone up a fair amount. Looking at the mission interface I have no idea why at the moment. The kill and identification %, as well as the bonuses, seem to be the same.

This time I am going to get the 200 science (42 turns to complete)

 

[Gazebo]

Ok 2nd mission, so I go for Berlin again, as all of Germany missions show full stars on his cities. But...the turns times now are much higher, 47 seems to be the normal. So is that because Berlin is on higher alert, or the duration changes through other means? I don't know...frustrating. But I decide to change my spy to see if its the former.

Update: So I tried changing the spy to a new city before I selected the mission for Berlin. Game did not like that, showed weird behavior and then crashed.

Update: Okay went back several turns to instead place the spy in another city. And it does look like all of my mission turns times have gone up a fair amount. Looking at the mission interface I have no idea why at the moment. The kill and identification %, as well as the bonuses, seem to be the same.

This time I am going to get the 200 science (42 turns to complete)

Every time a civ is robbed by a player, the civ gets a little more resistance against you.

weird that it bugged. May need To disallow movement for spies with pending events

Also, unless a civ has spies itself, it’s cities will not degrade in security. This is a general nerf to England, of course, however it is the only civ that really gets spies significantly early enough to notice this.

 

[Stalker0]

Every time a civ is robbed by a player, the civ gets a little more resistance against you.

Ah I thought it was city based not civ. Is there anywhere in the UI that tells me that? As far as I can tell all cities are at max security.



So I complete my 2nd spy mission (and I don't believe I am getting any notification as its the second time I missed that it finished).

Now hitting France. My science steal is back down to 25 turns, so yeah lets do it. One of the UI things with stuff like poison well, ideally I would like to be able to see the city just once when the mission is completed so I can see the results of my work, like look at Germany pop loss and laugh manically like a proper emperor should. So there is a frustration in the spy immediately moving back so I loss sight of the city. Maybe the spy finisher could send you to that city's screen so you can see the fruits of your labor or something.

Oh btw, I LOVE that your using the Civ IV sounds for the spies

UPDATE: So got my 2nd spy through statecraft. Since a level 3 spy is needing ~25 turns to complete a mission, seems that CS rigging is literally 100% or more faster at leveling up my spies, so a rig it shall be.

 

[tommytoxen]

Hey all!

New beta inbound. The spy one!

Bugfixes
    Fixed minefield issue hurting own ships
    CTD fixes
    Fixed some build order issues
    Diplo AI tweaks
    Fixed errors with 'more GP' module
   
Balance
    Espionage
        New Espionage System!
            Spy Events replace tech/GW theft
            Spy Events for counterspies
            New overhauled UI
        Advanced Action 'random' system removed
            All elements of system, including building/wonder effects, removed
    Policies
        Industry
            Moved 2 TR to opener
            Moved 100% Train/Seaport to Division of Labor
            Moved Gold investment bonus to Protectionism
    Civs
        Bandeirantes - now 20 CS
    Terrain
        Desert speed restored - rough attr. now based on visibility

Online as of 3:30pm CST. Not savegame compatible.

Link: https://mega.nz/folder/2Jdw3aQT#Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA

Cheers,
Gazebo

How do you manage to always post these JUST as I've finished my current game and ready to start a new one? Kek
I always check the forums once I finish a game. (takes me weeks to finish)

 

[youngsteve]

Never thought there was going to be another version for a few weeks. Great work by all.

 

[Gazebo]

Ah I thought it was city based not civ. Is there anywhere in the UI that tells me that? As far as I can tell all cities are at max security.



So I complete my 2nd spy mission (and I don't believe I am getting any notification as its the second time I missed that it finished).

Now hitting France. My science steal is back down to 25 turns, so yeah lets do it. One of the UI things with stuff like poison well, ideally I would like to be able to see the city just once when the mission is completed so I can see the results of my work, like look at Germany pop loss and laugh manically like a proper emperor should. So there is a frustration in the spy immediately moving back so I loss sight of the city. Maybe the spy finisher could send you to that city's screen so you can see the fruits of your labor or something.

Oh btw, I LOVE that your using the Civ IV sounds for the spies

UPDATE: So got my 2nd spy through statecraft. Since a level 3 spy is needing ~25 turns to complete a mission, seems that CS rigging is literally 100% or more faster at leveling up my spies, so a rig it shall be.

English spies operate one level higher.

there should be a notification, is it possibly getting grouped with other notifications?

G

 

[Gazebo]

Ah I thought it was city based not civ. Is there anywhere in the UI that tells me that? As far as I can tell all cities are at max security.



So I complete my 2nd spy mission (and I don't believe I am getting any notification as its the second time I missed that it finished).

Now hitting France. My science steal is back down to 25 turns, so yeah lets do it. One of the UI things with stuff like poison well, ideally I would like to be able to see the city just once when the mission is completed so I can see the results of my work, like look at Germany pop loss and laugh manically like a proper emperor should. So there is a frustration in the spy immediately moving back so I loss sight of the city. Maybe the spy finisher could send you to that city's screen so you can see the fruits of your labor or something.

Oh btw, I LOVE that your using the Civ IV sounds for the spies

UPDATE: So got my 2nd spy through statecraft. Since a level 3 spy is needing ~25 turns to complete a mission, seems that CS rigging is literally 100% or more faster at leveling up my spies, so a rig it shall be.

For the resistance I just need to add a TT element for it.

 

[Bad_At_Diplomacy]

I'm having the same problem this person is with more unique components: https://github.com/LoneGazebo/Community-Patch-DLL/issues/7788

 

[Stalker0]

Ok so on Turn 167 and as the world has moved into the Renaissance things are a bit more interesting, as security levels are starting to move about a bit more, so I have more targets to choose. So I have a level 2 (England + White tower) spy that I send to lisbon, who is only 8 security at the moment. So here are my new suite of options with bonuses.

• Disrupt Production: -150 (23 | 1 | 22)
• Gain Gold: +150 (20 | 1 | 21)
• Poison Well: -150 , -10 for 10 turns (19 | 3 | 21)
• Pillage Tiles: Pillage 1-2 regular tiles (28 | 10 | 28)
• Gain Science: +120 (19 | 5 | 21)
• Kidnap Specialists: -300 on GS, GE, GM. +2 yields from those specialists in my capital for 10 turns. (19 | 1 | 19)
• Target City Defenses: 25 dmg to city and garrison, city can't heal for 5 turns (19 | 8 | 23)
• Arm Local Populace (not available, city must be unhappy).
• Forge Artifact: -300 on GW, GMus, GA. +1 yields from those specialists in my capital for 15 turns. (19 | 1 | 19)

So my turn numbers are a good bit lower, I assume from the lowered security. My spy death chances are also much lower, is that because of the lowered security or England's bonus?

Kidnap Specialists: If I had a strong tradition civ right now I would actually consider this one, as the gold and science ones aren't look as hot.
Poison Well: While this made a big splash early, I don't think that kind of food loss is going to help me now compared to some other options.
Pillage Tiles: Um...no.
Forge Artifact: Generally weaker than kidnap specialists especially at this point in the game but has possibilities later on.

Science: Effectively I'm gaining +6 SPT, and I'm currently making +125, so .5% increase in science. Kind of meh for me right now.

So I look at Lisbon and she's only running a couple of Engineers at the moment, not worth a kidnap. Her growth in lisbon is actually a bit weak at the moment, so I give poison another go as its quick and will help me level my spy.

Update: It seems the security levels of the world are in freefall right now, so it might have been smarter to do a CS rig, get my level, and then come back in to cities with much lower security.

 

[Gazebo]

Ok so on Turn 167 and as the world has moved into the Renaissance things are a bit more interesting, as security levels are starting to move about a bit more, so I have more targets to choose. So I have a level 2 (England + White tower) spy that I send to lisbon, who is only 8 security at the moment. So here are my new suite of options with bonuses.

• Disrupt Production: -150 (23 | 1 | 22)
• Gain Gold: +150 (20 | 1 | 21)
• Poison Well: -150 , -10 for 10 turns (19 | 3 | 21)
• Pillage Tiles: Pillage 1-2 regular tiles (28 | 10 | 28)
• Gain Science: +120 (19 | 5 | 21)
• Kidnap Specialists: -300 on GS, GE, GM. +2 yields from those specialists in my capital for 10 turns. (19 | 1 | 19)
• Target City Defenses: 25 dmg to city and garrison, city can't heal for 5 turns (19 | 8 | 23)
• Arm Local Populace (not available, city must be unhappy).
• Forge Artifact: -300 on GW, GMus, GA. +1 yields from those specialists in my capital for 15 turns. (19 | 1 | 19)

So my turn numbers are a good bit lower, I assume from the lowered security. My spy death chances are also much lower, is that because of the lowered security or England's bonus?

Kidnap Specialists: If I had a strong tradition civ right now I would actually consider this one, as the gold and science ones aren't look as hot.
Poison Well: While this made a big splash early, I don't think that kind of food loss is going to help me now compared to some other options.
Pillage Tiles: Um...no.
Forge Artifact: Generally weaker than kidnap specialists especially at this point in the game but has possibilities later on.

Science: Effectively I'm gaining +6 SPT, and I'm currently making +125, so .5% increase in science. Kind of meh for me right now.

So I look at Lisbon and she's only running a couple of Engineers at the moment, not worth a kidnap. Her growth in lisbon is actually a bit weak at the moment, so I give poison another go as its quick and will help me level my spy.

Update: It seems the security levels of the world are in freefall right now, so it might have been smarter to do a CS rig, get my level, and then come back in to cities with much lower security.

Yeah, so as soon as spies come online for civs their security levels start to shift. Since no one has constabularies and there are few counterspies…things start to decline.

Keep in mind too that lower security, while faster, has lower rewards.

also also, you’ll notice that the Public Works project increases your security.

 

[Stalker0]

Yeah, so as soon as spies come online for civs their security levels start to shift. Since no one has constabularies and there are few counterspies…things start to decline.

Keep in mind too that lower security, while faster, has lower rewards.

also also, you’ll notice that the Public Works project increases your security.

It makes sense, I am just walking you through my thought process as I play, so you can "feel" the user's reaction to the mechanics.

One thing I would really like, is a button when I'm selecting my mission to go to the city in question. As I am setting up a suite of new spies, I always want to check out the city to help inform me on the best mission. this is especially true when I'm laying multiple spy missions on the same turn, as hiding my spy to check out the city means I go to the next spy mission in another city...so its easy to get confused.

Update: So I've put a spy down in a pretty low security city. Suddenly kidnapping is looking more interesting. I could get 80 science in 10 turns (eh), or I could get +2 to my specialists for 10 turns....note that this specialist bonus doesn't scale, its as good in this city as it was in the full security one. So if I do a couple of those missions together, suddenly my specialists are looking kind of good. Alright that's neat, let me give that a try.

Update: Oh wow, it gets even better

Spoiler :

My other city is very low security, but the specialist boost is still just as good. 2 turns, heck yeah! Since I already laid down my previous spy, in theory completing this mission should not impact my last one, so I will have a nice boost to my specialists here in short order.

 

[Gazebo]

It makes sense, I am just walking you through my thought process as I play, so you can "feel" the user's reaction to the mechanics.

One thing I would really like, is a button when I'm selecting my mission to go to the city in question. As I am setting up a suite of new spies, I always want to check out the city to help inform me on the best mission. this is especially true when I'm laying multiple spy missions on the same turn, as hiding my spy to check out the city means I go to the next spy mission in another city...so its easy to get confused.

Ah a button on the quest pop up?

G

 

[Stalker0]

Ah a button on the quest pop up?

G

Please

Update: So open borders gives +20% more spy power. While thematically it makes sense, I actually don't like, I think there are already too many reasons not to give Open Borders to people, and don't want to see disincentived further.

 

[Recursive]

Ok so on Turn 167 and as the world has moved into the Renaissance things are a bit more interesting, as security levels are starting to move about a bit more, so I have more targets to choose. So I have a level 2 (England + White tower) spy that I send to lisbon, who is only 8 security at the moment. So here are my new suite of options with bonuses.

• Disrupt Production: -150 (23 | 1 | 22)
• Gain Gold: +150 (20 | 1 | 21)
• Poison Well: -150 , -10 for 10 turns (19 | 3 | 21)
• Pillage Tiles: Pillage 1-2 regular tiles (28 | 10 | 28)
• Gain Science: +120 (19 | 5 | 21)
• Kidnap Specialists: -300 on GS, GE, GM. +2 yields from those specialists in my capital for 10 turns. (19 | 1 | 19)
• Target City Defenses: 25 dmg to city and garrison, city can't heal for 5 turns (19 | 8 | 23)
• Arm Local Populace (not available, city must be unhappy).
• Forge Artifact: -300 on GW, GMus, GA. +1 yields from those specialists in my capital for 15 turns. (19 | 1 | 19)

So my turn numbers are a good bit lower, I assume from the lowered security. My spy death chances are also much lower, is that because of the lowered security or England's bonus?

Kidnap Specialists: If I had a strong tradition civ right now I would actually consider this one, as the gold and science ones aren't look as hot.
Poison Well: While this made a big splash early, I don't think that kind of food loss is going to help me now compared to some other options.
Pillage Tiles: Um...no.
Forge Artifact: Generally weaker than kidnap specialists especially at this point in the game but has possibilities later on.

Science: Effectively I'm gaining +6 SPT, and I'm currently making +125, so .5% increase in science. Kind of meh for me right now.

So I look at Lisbon and she's only running a couple of Engineers at the moment, not worth a kidnap. Her growth in lisbon is actually a bit weak at the moment, so I give poison another go as its quick and will help me level my spy.

Update: It seems the security levels of the world are in freefall right now, so it might have been smarter to do a CS rig, get my level, and then come back in to cities with much lower security.

For the pillaging of tiles, it's not up to two total, but up to two of EACH type of improvement.