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New Beta Version - August 31st (8/31)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Aug 31, 2019.

  1. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Absolutely true. I haven't even come close to losing a war like this in... I don't know. A very long time. In general, the AIs offensive wars in the early game on King have been hugely tilted in my favor. They do decent on defense, but the offense hasn't been quite on par.

    I'm not even a hundred percent sure what allowed him to do so well; I just felt overwhelmed in more advanced units despite our being roughly equivalent in most things on paper.

    Normally, I would have handled the situation by wiping him out before it ever got to that point, but I was trying to play a different kind of game for once.
     
  2. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Good for Atilla. It looks like we have to try harder when a warmonger is close now. Like going authority even when you don't plan on warmongering.
     
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  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Touching on a change from a few versions back now, I'm not a fan of the workshop change. With both the population drop in general and the workshop shift...I don't find them as competitive. I still build them with forests of course, and in key places like the capital, but I find I am delaying them a lot in my satellite cities for other priorities.
     
  6. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    That's what I would have said for a long time now until I started my new game after almost a year...Byzantium, was going to pick Tradition but saw Persia and Sweden as immediate neighbors so I chose Authority and then they both picked Tradition and played peacefully ever since...they don't even forward-settle much.:lol: Go figure :crazyeye:
    It's only King, though, so I guess maybe the RNG made them pick Tradition even though it was their 2nd priority item. I guess it will be me doing the warmongering then :trouble::D
     
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  7. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    I guess I'll need to just reroll if they're nearby, if I'm dead set on playing even semi peacefully. I'm fine with war, but that game was an entirely unpleasant experience.

    Hopefully just a fluke.
     
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  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So trying out the new version, thought I would give my Japanese sword rush another try, but with a pyramid twist! This is on Emperor.

    So had a beautiful start, with 2 1F2P tiles in near proximity, getting a +1 pop ruin. With this, I have a great 3 pop base with good hammers for the pyramids. I rush mining, and start making a beeling for iron working.

    I complete the pyramid, giving me a settler, and since I have a wonderful 6 iron spot not that far off, I decide to settle on top, ensuring when my swordsman are ready I have iron ready to go. Even sell a little of is, as it will take quite a while to get to iron working.

    I clean up a few barb camps and then work on building spearmen to trigger tributes in the local CS. I get to imperium, and that plus 1 settler I make, I quickly secure a "core 4" city sites. The ottomans declare from the north, but I have smartly placed a strong defense position for my north city, and with a few spearman at hand, I have no concerns. The many many MANY turns to iron working continue.

    And then my happiness crashes.... down to 31%. And then I get 2 barbs to show up at my capital....so I have to send some of my spears back to deal with them. And 2 more barbs show up. One of them just goes on a little pillaging spree, and with my spears tied up at the capital and on my north border, the pillages hurt badly. With a -20% combat penalty, my spears do ok at the north border but not amazing, but I have Protection as my religion, so their healing always for defense.

    I am building barracks in all of my cities, hoping that protection + japan bonus will give me the bonuses I need to overcome the happiness. Alas, its not fast enough...and my north city flips to a CS!!! Which.....means I lose all my iron!!!! Now my spearman now longer get their extra healing and are forced to retreat.

    Its turn 77. I have iron working but no iron, and a big production penalty to build new units. But I have catapults, so we will see what happens as I continue this game.


    I think the key lesson so far is...pyramids early are very nice...but its a double edged sword. Also, I am giving up 40 science and culture vs a later settler settle with imperium that I normally can snag. Happiness is still your greatest enemy as an early warmonger. I may have to invest in more infrastructure and delay the swords rush a bit, or base it off of 3 cities instead of 4. Right now from a warmongering perspective, I'm liking the tech change up, but its not all gravy...it does require a rethink of certain strategies.

    EDIT: So turn 81. The AI decides to humiliate me. They ally the CS to my west, who immediately attacks my vulnerable western city. With all of my meager forces occupied, it has taken my western city:( Down to 2 city....oh boy here we go.

    Edit: Turn 102. I have retaken Tokyo from the CS. The damn CS put up quite a fight, it had a lot of units! Also there were a crazy number of barbs just appearing from everywhere, so while it took me awhile, I get a lot of barb culture and science. I will need every bit of it for this comeback. Now to deal with the CS proper

    Edit: Turn 118. I have made Sidon pay for its taking of Tokyo! I puppet...and immediately sink down to 34% happiness:( Now with a -75% penalty to growth (which is particularly sad because I just focused on a nice +12 food ITR to Tokyo...oh well)...I turn my eye to my old city to the north...but the happiness makes it a hard hill to climb.

    Edit: Turn 120. My taking of Sidon is not popular with the people, and they pop 2 revolutionaries to fight me off! Since my army is nearby I dispatch them, and get a little science and culture for my trouble. But these little distractions keep delaying me from taking back my north city and securing that iron. I am so far behind already, that every delay is noticeable.

    Edit: Turn 123. The ottomans are sending a settler towards me from the north. And he literally moves the unit underneath one of my spearmen! I hadn't planned to engage the ottoman so quickly, but I can't let this gift go to waste. I declare and snag the settler. Also, Sidon has clamed down, and my happiness is back up to 62%. So I'm in fighting shape!

    Edit: Turn 131. The fates continue their punishment. I have 1 southern spot on my continent without sight. So of course a barb nest plants there, and now a skirmisher proceeds to pillage my lands. I don't have any defenders at the moment, as they are all to the north. So....damn:(

    Edit: Turn 135. I have finally gotten my 2nd GG, and get the a GM, GA, and GW for the trouble (Japan). But I can only make a great work of art at the moment. For those curious about the Heroic Epic, I still need 3 more citizens to snag it.

    Edit: Turn 138. I took care of those barbs and the camp with a horseman. I generally like the new horseman change. They are no longer a hammer unit that I can just throw at the enemy needlessly, but they are a solid auxiliary unit. For example, I used it to chase down those barbs from far in my backfield. And just now, I also just put one between one of my very wounded c bowman and an enemy spear. The horseman took a lot of damage but both units retreated successfully.

    I will also say my Survival III Scout is the absolute MVP of this game. The ability to heal 15 damage in enemy territory with a +50% defense is a godsend right now. Its realistically my most tanky unit.

    Happiness wise, I'm right at 50%.

    Edit: Turn 142. Religion has finally come to one of my cities. I get inspiration, orders, and goddess of fertility. Not bad at all! I will miss goddess of protection dearly (it is an incredible panteon for the early game when warring is common and healing a critical part of defense), but I cannot ignore the new yields and happiness control. And I have a ton of faith to work with, so I start an immediate spread, with followups on order buying.

    Edit: Turn 147. After a long campaign I have taken Edirne from the Ottomans. Though I'm not sure if I'll be able to hold it. My happiness dropped down to the 26% after the take, we will see if its stabilizes.

    Edit: 154. Byantium has declared on me. Oh...remember good old Brastalavia, that CS that used to my city before it flipped? Yeah...Byzantium is there ally now, and I have 2 military units right next to the city, which has been a key military chokepoint against the Ottomans. FML.

    I have held Edirne, but only because there were no melee units in sight. But I'll take anything I can get! The trick for me now is once again the happiness count. More barbs have appeared near Tokyo, and my city flip counter is down to 4 turns. I do not think I will be able to increase it enough before it flips. I am trying every turn to get peace with the Ottomans, but the stubborn old goat won't budge.

    Edit: Turn 157. With 1 turn left before the flip, I spend nearly every GPT I have to secure luxuries from other players. That, plus a key unit garrison, gives me what I need to get out of the red. So no city flip...for now.

    Edit: 163. The ottomans have finally called it quits, and I have secured Edirne. At this point, I try for Bratslavia...the prodigal son must return home!

    But...its impossible. The CS currently has a 53 CS!!! My c bowman and catapults are each sniped with a single attack, I have nothing that can stop this monster. And I'm still a bit away from Physics. And I had placed this city well...too well. It was a rock, and controlled the entire north area. To face anyone else, I had to go through it, and that was not to be.

    So at this point I call it, its just not to be.


    Summary: The trick with early warring is there is so much you have to manage at once. Build troops, get initial cities, and ensure enough infrastructure so that not everyone turns against you! Its a tall order. Happiness is a beast early game, because even a swing of +2 happy can make all the difference in those early turns.

    I am going to do another run, and see if I can make the pyramid rush work, but with a bit of a more infrastructure focused start so I don't just give my cities to the AI as playthings:)
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  9. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    I'm curious what happened with your happiness. Granted that I play on King (turns out I lied about Emperor. Thought I had switched it, hadn't. So I'm still a King pleb :( ), but I busted out cities with Progress and Authority in the last patch and happiness has been pretty much perfect. Wasn't a no brainer, but also wasn't super punishing.

    I'm talking six, seven, eight cities before the classical and no problems. Is happiness that much worse on Emperor, or...?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
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  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Nice read! #sidonwillriseagain

    G
     
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  11. andersw

    andersw King

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    I've tried a couple of Pyramid/authority starts with a small delay to finish shrine and its dicey, not garantueed to get it on king (depends ofc on start).
    As you mentioned I end up with a settler so early that I dont get the imperium/tribute bonuses from AND it also (since its another city) delays tribute/imperium policys.
    And yes then there is happiness, a very early 4-5 city potential which is so easy to sink to unhappiness hell.
    Pyramid is probably better for tradition?

    If you can afford a "no culture pantheon" and have coastal near, god of the sea feels very strong for early city spam.
    Since you get some faith for free its safe to go monument first and you get free faith/food in every city.
    This allows for relative fast settler from sattelite cities.
    (on a side note as Shaka I held off a Pictish warrior carpet that was very grindy, saved by city states allies providing Mohawks and Kris swords to me.)
     
  12. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    Playing a wide Rome on standard continents, only King for this game. Authority/Fealty and about to take Imperialism. Earth Mother / Hero Worship / Zealotry / Crusader Spirit / Orders / Churches. Got a first hand taste of the new tech changes after starting on gems with numerous iron nearby; Pyramid into SoZ was sweet. Legion feel great with the sword change. This is the first game I've enjoyed the quick Blitz from Alhambra, but I'm still on the fence about the risk of a wasted Drill promotion. Currently 15 cities after taking my 3rd capital. Happiness has felt great, and I was able to push a war that I never would've extended in prior versions. Ram Khamhaeng had Great Wall and really put up a fight with his elephants, as I took his wonder laden capital just in time before the double digit weariness became too debilitating. I've had a nearby Siam for several recent games, and found out that he can be a real pain...

    I love the new gold changes for ETR. Especially as a warmonger, I can adjust from ITR once my - GPT becomes too crippling, and the hammer value of my caravans are justified because the gold I'm bringing in finally fixes the problem, where as in the past it didn't matter if you sent all your routes to an advanced neighbor, you weren't climbing out of the hole. Now I have agency.
     
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  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Did another quick Japan run. This time my start was not as strong, but I went ahead and tried the pyramid rush anyway. Also....I got an archer from a my CS exploration, that's new!!!!

    The basic jist. I went 4 cities again (and got the pyramid) but this time switched to calendar instead of beeling to iron working like before, and focused on infrastructure. This time I did alright happiness wise with 4 cities, and could hold out.

    One key note about the pyramid rush is you are giving up a religion as authority going it, as you generally have to forego your capital shrine to build the pyramid. I like that actually...and overall while the pyramid rush has potential as Authority, it really doesn't feel overpowered. It has significant tradeoffs.

    I got to Turn 142 in this game. I could never break out of my core 4, I have no iron for samurai, and England and I are just in a stalemate war. I am doing ok this game, not great, but stable. Its a workable game, but I want to try a few more iterations.

    I will also say....Tea is absolutely ridiculous if you get it on grassland. With herbalist that's 2 F 5 hammers, its better than a forge mine on a hill. And its monopoly is also amazingly good, Tea deserves a nerf imo.
     
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  14. Dolen

    Dolen Chieftain

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    When I spawn with lots of tea or lapis lazuli in sight I insta-click restart.
    Tea, along with some other resources, doesn't produce a single gold; that's a HUGE problem for me in early game.
    I don't think there is any need to nerf it.
     
  15. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Just to be clear, you skip multiple 2food4production tiles that also give culture with the monopoly and have a fantastic pantheon... Because they don't produce a resource you could get from selling the Tea?
     
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  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Lapis is probably my favorite resource. 2 science when improved is awesome. Tea is really good too.
     
  17. Rafs

    Rafs Warlord

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    While tea is very nice, I find myself missing the gold yield on some starts (no bison,fish and tea), unless I go progress. I do find the monopoly really good for the mid-late game though.
     
  18. azum4roll

    azum4roll Prince

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    Playing as Authority France with tea monopoly right now. Tea is quite nice to have in the early game, but they fall off at around Medieval until you get grocers. Or maybe it's just because Chateaus are just that much better.
     
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So did one more Japan run for the night, to about turn 144. I again tried a pyramid rush to a 4 city base. This time I got military theory early for barracks but focused on calendar and some other needs before pushing to Iron Working.

    This seems to work a lot better happiness wise. My cities remain stable and productive. Through turn 143 this game I was able to stay 45-55% most of the time.

    One thing is I did manage to found this game. I tried a very greedy build with monument and then shrine before getting the pyramids. I bagged a 30 hammer ruin which I think was the deciding factor, the build felt too greedy and I think an AI rushing Pyramid would have bagged it had I not gotten the ruin. At least they should have imo.

    On the AI side, I am noticing the AI building a lot more units again. This is something I have noticed in the last several versions, the AI just didn't seem to have the carpet I had gotten used to. Well this game it was back. Polynesia forwarded settle me, and my god did he bring an army to bear.

    Slowly....painfully, I worked through the storm of units and managed to bag a city.

    On the new Swordsman, finally got a serious playthrough with them. What's interesting is that the swordsman vs spearman dynamic. Funny enough, even though the Swordsman has been buffed, without its shock its actually weaker against spearman that it was before the 16 CS increase....and it showed. I still did well against spearman, but not dominant. Ultimately the change did what I hoped it would do, the swords were a bit more durable against archers (and especially cities), enough that I could hold positions a turn or 2 longer. But...the swordsman has lost some offense against archers, and that also showed....they were not just wrecking the battle as some people had feared. And even with cover 2, my swords were still taking damage from the ranged units, they were far from invincible. All in all though I think its a good change.

    I will also say, the CS were so annoying this game! One of the CS that was allied with Polynesia just would not leave me alone. He pushed my cities, and just pillaged pillaged pillaged, everywhere he could. It was just this fly that I couldn't get rid of, and it clearly made a difference.
     
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  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    One of the reasons the AI was performing a bit more poorly on the past few versions is that numerous small tweaks had allowed a bug to creep in that made the AI jump around between tasks, never finishing builds on time. That's gone now. AI is also building infrastructure a bit earlier in order to have productive power.

    G
     

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