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New Beta Version - February 18th (2-18)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Seems rather odd as Forests and Jungles are often interspersed in a weird way that would often prevent triangles. Strikes me that it would just end up favouring some players over others from sheer luck. Farms don't nearly have as bad of a problem.
     
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I agree. I'd actually like look at balance of basic improvement.

    1. I miss farms on fresh water hills. It could be locked behind a tech if really necessary, but is it?

    2. Lumbermills are really weak early on.
    Currently a forest is base 2 :c5food:1:c5production:, or 1:c5food:,2:c5production:
    You get +1:c5production: for lumbermill
    +1:c5production:+1:c5gold: for workshop
    +2:c5production: to lumbermills on metallurgy in the renaissance

    What I would do is change the lumbermill to +2:c5production:, but the tech boost in renaissance to only 1:c5production:. That puts lumbermills more in line with farms and mines of their time. As is lumbermills hit 4 yields, competing with mines + forge that already has 5 yields, and a 6th upon researching steel. Farms have 4 yields + a 5th if they have a triangle.

    Eventually forests do become amazing because the zoo keeps getting strange buffs that no one asked for. I don't think lumbermills should get 1 culture as something all civs have access to.

    3. Maybe this doesn't match the above, but I really think the forge should just give 1:c5production: to mines. Right now, sheep are generally worse than empty hills.

    4. Agribusiness farms/pastures totally dominate the late game. Industry's buffs aren't very important because they still don't beat agribusiness farms. I think imperialism could use a few adjustments here. 3 yields to farms is too many, I really think 2 :c5science: on ocean is obscene, for many empires its more than science that rationalism gets, while still getting all the other imperialism perksf.
     
  3. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I appreciate your post, CrazyG.

    1. Why were freshwater hillfarms removed in the first place? I miss them as well.

    These days, the freshwater hills end up being my Villages most often.


    2. Agreed with swapping the 1 production for the later 2 production bonus.

    3. I agree with decreasing Forge bonus to Mines, but I would add that I think there's too many bonuses to things generally, until finally the overview screen simply looks like a mess. I actually want to do some backtracking to Vanilla a little and make all the tiles and buildings and techs more simple. This one is an excellent start.

    HOWEVER, this comment may also say more about Sheep than it does about Forges. Sheep suck. GP on sheep also suck since you don't even get to keep the Gold yield for Golden Ages. AND you don't get the culture yields from God of Pastures because the Sheep are always on Hills. Basically I think this yield needs a re-think.

    4. When it comes to balancing out the later policy trees, I think what we're taking for granted is the earlier policy trees that are all different and react with later trees in a variety of ways. By the time the late game arrives, it's hard to pin down what the actual yield numbers for these later trees really are. It would be interesting to field test some of the later trees with a "blanked" earlier social policy tree (that is, run a test game where you ONLY have Rationalism/Imperialism/Industry and nothing else besides) and see how the numbers pan out.
     
    Maxxim69, Delvemor, Erikose and 3 others like this.
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Kim Dong Un and CrazyG like this.
  5. Aqinu

    Aqinu Chieftain

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    Here link for a solution. Full Top Panel Condensed in this version type is the most compact, choose the ones you like...
     
  6. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I can tweak the map script so forest clusters happen more frequently, but that would only work for my map.
     
  7. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    What do you mean for your map?

    This raises the question for me as to whether VP should make basic edits to all the standard map scripts for general balance.
     
  8. vyyt

    vyyt Emperor

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    I agree, I miss the hill farms (adjacent to fresh water) too.
     
  9. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Do we also miss forest and jungle plantations? :p
     
  10. Gizmoman

    Gizmoman Chieftain

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    I'm kinda glad they are gone, mainly because it screws with farm spam and forces you to adjust
     
  11. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    I'm still okay with losing freshwater hill farms.
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    It isn't just sheep. Cows are pretty mediocre too. They tend to be just barely better or barely worse than a farm on that tile would have been. Neither one of these resources are really worth positioning your cities for, unless you took god of the open sky.

    Related note, I'd be fine with the herbalist just giving 1 food directly to forests/jungles. It's less work to micro manage. It was changed when farms were much worse than they currently are.
     
    bigcat88 and Kim Dong Un like this.
  13. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Wasn't the Herbalist changed because we felt Forests/Jungles were too powerful from a full food each?

    And true on Cows...I can't disagree, and I'm not sure Bison are that great either, but the other Camp resources seem fine.

    I could throw Stone into this as well.

    We're I to summarize: it seems to me that non-luxury non-strategic resource tiles are a nuisance because they prevent the existence of *normal* tiles which could actually be put to better use.

    I guess this makes them natural choices for GPI. But at least intuitively, I would think it makes sense to regard resources of any kind as a bonus rather than a drawback, and that's not the vibe I'm getting.

    @Gizmoman - I don't mind the idea of adjusting. Nevertheless, the farm adjacency bonus is partly there because farms aren't good enough by themselves and you sort of need to depend on the adjacency to make it worth your while. Moreover, farms don't even give non-food yields unless you have specific wonders or buildings, which defaults your city to only being useful much later in the game when the demand for specialists is very high. I actually don't even like Floodplain starts because my city can't build anything.
     
  14. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I would think Bison are a decent non strategic resource when combined with the early granary building? I tend to build granaries early pretty consistently so their bonus to bison is like a given to me.

    Cow/sheep tend to be pretty decent with stables, right? Stables come much later in the game but not THAT late and if you have just 2 horse/sheep/cow then it's a pretty solid building I think.

    I don't tend to work a lot of farm tiles (even clusters) for most of the game other than probably in my capital in a Tradition game. Even then I'm probably getting a lot of food from an internal trade route or two and might favor other tiles instead (like GPTI on pasture tiles, for instance).

    I don't have numbers for any of this, though- just my gut. Entirely possible my gut is wrong and I should be using farms more than I am.
     
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  15. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Just to be clear - Bison are a blessing right at the beginning, but they do not scale well. As for Cows - while it's true that they get a bonus with Stables, this bonus doesn't scale anywhere near as well as other things, and an improved Cow early in the game still only gives as much yields as *unimproved* Sugar or Cocoa. The same tile as a Farm with only 4 nearby farms without any tech improvements or rivers yields the same as the Cow's total yields. Farms can only go up from there.

    Late in the game, I see no value in working Sheep tiles without a GPI. I'd rather have the option of telling the worker to murder the Sheep to get an instant 20 turns of Food in the nearby city and have the Sheep icon disappear forever.
     
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  16. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    Honestly, I think people underestimate the value of the culture villages provides, particularly early on when sources of culture are rare. Also, if one in three civs picks rationalism that's not an insignificant things. I don't know if people feel that rationalism isn't appealing, but now it has more reasons to pick it.

    Also worth noting is that many civs have Unique improvements which break up farms already. Yields on individual tiles are more important when you don't have farms everywhere. I feel that cows are decent tbh. Would be nice if they were buffed by something earlier than the stable, but they're still I will still work cattle over say a mine up until I get forges, or over a farm because as I mentioned UIs tend to break up farms. Don't forget that Open Sky isn't the only thing that buffs pastures pre-Stable. Fealty also gives them a bonus.
    If you start on plains or grassland sure. If you play a civ with a forest or jungle bias though it's pretty common to have large areas. Keeping them that way is another matter, but that's another matter.
    I have zero regrets personally. My hills are either on a city connection or they become mines. I think not being able to work freshwater hills also makes the Inca's UI more meaningful.
    I think the intention is to make keeping forest and jungle around a question of 'chop now and get immediate yields or keep around and get great yields later on'.

    If you want more early on and less later on that's understandable. I don't think that's what Gazebo has in mind for woods/jungles though, given the general trend we're seen.
    I like the yields the Forge grants myself. Makes the building feel meaningful to me, kind of exciting in a way that it wouldn't be otherwise.
    Sure, but they are bonus resources. They're supposed to be a bonus, not the main consideration.
    Bison are great IMO. If the issue is that they break up farms I can't help but feel the whole farm adjacency thing is maybe defining the meta too much.
    You don't any objection to wheat, right? Because you can build a farm on it.
    Stone gives you a bonus to wonders and provides important hammers on grassland starts. It also allows you to build Stoneworks, the only way to do production ITRs early-game. Seems pretty important to me.
    Harvesting resources like in Civ 6 would be OK. It would take a bit of work to implement though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
  17. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    It would be interesting to see each improvement compared side by side through the eras. Maybe a column of yields just from tech/buildings of that era along with another column that includes potential adjacency/policy/belief bonuses (sort of best case scenario). Everyone gets a mini snapshot of this as they play through a game but the comparison gets skewed due to policy/religion choices at times so it's tough to make larger statements on overall balance.

    Specific to the sheep vs farm comparison, though, I often find myself not as interested in the farm tiles. Without numbers to rely on I can't explain why, other than maybe I just inherently value yields other than food more most of the time?
     
  18. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    Played another game, using the full settle bonuses this time. I was interesting. Very noticeably more difficult than the version with no bonuses on capital settle but full bonuses otherwise, but more so in some ways than others.

    Specifically, early wonders get built sooner, patheons get adopted sooner, and the early-game goes faster (which was already the case with the bonus warrior). I daresay that ancient ruins get snapped up sooner, although I don't really have a large enough sample to confirm that. The major impact that I noticed from those things is that founding is a little harder. I think it's OK to have some yields on capital settling, but 1/3 sounds about right IMO. I'm fine with full yields on settling other cities.

    Also, I was hoping that playing this version would avoid the CTD but no luck. Happened on turn 116, similar to last time.

    Spoiler Last Known Entry :
    20200221232352_1.jpg
     
  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/communitu_79.648648/

    I've tweaked Communitas mapscript to my tastes, with the help of @azum4roll for resources and bug fixes.
    There's a way to force more forest clusters without making the map full of trees. Right now, they are rare, as they form basically around rivers.

    VP already changes how luxuries are created in all map scripts, so I guess that it is possible to force all map scripts to have more forest clusters. I guess. I don't dare to touch VP.
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    it always felt so good in civ4 when cows connected for +4 hammers. Mmm. Beef.
     

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