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New Beta Version - March 15th (3-15)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Mar 15, 2020.

  1. MIS

    MIS Prince

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    My bad if I'm wrong. Were events in Civ4? I guess that was Civ5:BE. I didn't play Civ4, so I may be mistaken. War Weariness was Civ3 and Civ6?
     
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  2. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    You would have enjoyed the conversation here last month that immortal and emperor were too easy :lol::lol:
    You seem frustrated and just to be clear i'm not telling you to gitgud but there is a learning curve here, the spike in difficulty between warlord and prince is smaller than the one between prince and king, the spike between king and emperor is much harder to get a hold of than the one between prince and king .... Immortal and deity are another level requiring different approach.
    The current state of archers is pretty much what people were asking for since early archer rushes were so ridiculous that they had to be nerfed, not sure if 4 CS is actually a reasonable number but i'm personally glad to see them sit on the bench for a while.
    On the other hand Composite BM, Crossbows, muskets and the rest of archery line are still the cornerstone of human VS ai warfare .... Just so you know humans cannot really out-produce the AI or train units as fast as the AI especially on Emperor and higher difficulties you are usually outnumbered 1 to 2 or even more .... A small wall of melee units blocking a choke point covered by archer fire is pretty much what you need to do to win wars against AI.
    Naval melee units are over tuned imo, there is an ongoing discussion about that but classical era naval units are not what we were discussing .... At least no one complained about it till now.
    About diplomacy, you should not really expect eveyone to be nice to you just because you are nice and want to mind your own business ... The AI wants to win and will use the opportunity to capture a city or win a war if you are caught off guardand that's one of the best things about VP imo ... It could be frustrating at times but it is what makes the game interesting.
    Just for the record i play Emperor and immortal all the time and most of my games are either progress or tradition and it's doable but it takes time to adapt.
     
  3. Gobbledygook5000

    Gobbledygook5000 Chieftain

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    Can you tell me where I can download legacy versions?
     
  4. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    FWIW, when I started playing I struggled on Prince difficulty, and even Chieftain took some adjustment.

    The latest stable version is linked at the top of the stickied Community Patch - How to Install thread.

    Legacy versions can be found here: https://mega.nz/#F!TBF1lKba!5qEL7OE4Qz8AIxXFFNsO_g

    A note on diplomacy - the AI in VP will not simply allow you to play a peaceful game without resistance. They are opportunistic and will use wars to attack weak opponents and prevent others from winning.

    If this kind of gameplay is not for you, there is an option to reduce AI aggression. Obviously, this makes the game easier.

    MODS > (1) Community Patch > Core Files > Core Changes > DiploAIOptions.sql. Set DIPLO_AI_NO_VICTORY_COMPETITION to 1.

    Diplomacy is much more strategic than in the base game, and revolves around creating blocs and alliances, so it can take some getting used to.

    In the current beta version there are some issues with AI aggression, particularly in regards to Wonders. I'm observing and adjusting in response to forum feedback. It is, after all, a beta.

    Speaking of that, since posting my earlier changelog, I've identified and fixed a significant number of bugs and issues with AI aggression while doing a careful examination of the approach function, so I'll be interested to see how things go next version. AI should be more strategic in its aggression, less wantonly so :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  5. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Do you understand how city CS works? I'm having trouble understanding how city CS works with the changes.
     
  6. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    This makes me happy :).
    When you experience things that are significantly different from what the rest of us are experiencing then it can be very difficult to understand where you are coming from. Screenshots are actually a really good way to convey your point such that we can work from common ground. Keep in mind that people in this forum are from all over the world, and while the standard of English in this forum is impressively high, at the very least cultural differences can create ambiguity (e.g. I sometimes have misunderstandings with my American friends). As noted people do play on various different settings as well, and some use other mods. So to know exactly what you mean can be challenging. E.g which unit are you attacking? Any details (including screenshots) you can provide can help us understand one another better.

    Personally I think the hammer cost of archers it too high for what they are but I find them useful. I tend to build 3 warriors (which I then upgrade to spearmen), 3 archers, and from there I usually have access to horses so I go for chariot archers or horsemen.
    In the context of people finding archer rushes imbalanced I would be very happy to see minor changes, e.g. +1 CS. I've been testing them out a bit and currently 1 archer does beat 1 warrior but not my a lot. And while 1 archer 1 warrior beats 2 warriors, 2 archers vs. 2 warriors is fairly close (similar to 1 v 1). Archers can hit targets warriors can't though, in a way that gives them a unique role against barbs. Much easier to clear a barb camp with archers than without, and you can hit units sitting off the coast on islands. Overall, I would like archers to be a bit better defensively so that going the top or middle of the tech tree still provides you with a defensive unit. Composite bows are excellent IMO so from that point I have no issues.

    That said, spearmen are a lot more useful than they used to be (in the past I have effectively ignored them apart from upgrading 2 warriors from the early-game and built ranged units or resource-dependant units instead. Even now I still try to aquire as much iron as possible before I research Gunpowder so that many of my melee units have the cover promotion. Tercios+ are great though. I think part of the challenge really is balancing out the roles of the different units. At the moment spears are great early-game because they beat both archers and warriors solidly whereas in the past it was viable to defend against spears by just spamming a bunch of archers. Horsemen also used to beat spears solidly whereas now spears are the best defense against horses. Horses still smash archers (which should be expected from a more advanved, more expensive resource-dependant unit). The balance isn't perfect but IMO it is OK and small changes would be my preference.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  7. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    By the way I had a lot of fun fighting the Huns recently. Their Horse Archers were mobile enough to hit my Cataphracts and get away which was frustrating but my units were tanky enough to take a hit and then retreat which gave them some experience. Over time I established a tech lead, upgrading to Lancers, Musketmen and Caravels - and then joyously cleared a swathe through their army, pillaging as I went. I don't war a lot, but this was extremely satisfying :).

    Captured a coastal city but didn't defend it very well so we swapped it back and forth several time. Will have to plan city captures more carefully in future as I lost quite a few units to city capture (had both a melee unit and a naval unit defending on several occasions, both lost when city captured). I actually managed to gain the upper hand in naval combat though, so that was nice. AI purchased 6 or so Landschneks in the city we were fighting over which turned up on my side of the border (it's all jungle so I don't think they could have moved there in 1 turn unless they were close already). Pretty smart overall, they put up a hearty defense unit I was able overpowered them with superior units.

    On the other hand, I was mostly comitted on that front and not at all ready when America (fielding their UU) declared war. I had open borders with them from previously so wasn't able to query their units massing on my borders. Probably should have send some of my army south, my they were hanging around forever before they declared war and I wanted reinforcements up north. In any case, I feel I learned some things about warfare!

    Spoiler Battlefronts :
    20200406090358_1.jpg
     
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  8. Gobbledygook5000

    Gobbledygook5000 Chieftain

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    I'm sorry what's CS stand for? A city's ranged attack?

    A few posts on from that I did link my screenshots. You can find them if you search above.
     
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  9. Recursive

    Recursive Emperor

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    CS = combat strength (used for melee attacks)
    RCS = ranged combat strength (used for ranged/bombardment attacks)

    CS can also stand for City-State, depending on context.
     
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  10. tommytoxen

    tommytoxen Warlord

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    is there a reason why 'trading posts grow into towns' would crash this version of VP? i've used it for years with no problem. anyway updated to this version yesterday and kept crashing at the end of turn 1.

    removed all mods & mod-mods and reapplied 1 at a time. took a looong time lol. was getting to the bottom of the mods list and was really scratching my head because all the 'suspects' i had in mind weren't crashing the game.

    got to trading posts grow into towns.. crash at the end of turn 1. removed it, no crash. re-applied it, crash. removed it and re-enabled other mods below it, no crash.

    so it's definitely trading posts grow into towns.

    has something changed in this version that would cause it?
     
  11. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    Archer vs spearmen isn't really on-era. Archers do just fine against warriors and chariots. Comp bows do just fine against spearmen, horsemen, etc. You're right that the current balance has archers performing poorly in this awkward time when spears/horses are rampant but comp bows aren't available yet but that doesn't mean archers are useless.

    People aren't dismissing you because you're new. People are dismissing you because your posts are filled with uninformed hyperbole and come across as a child throwing a tantrum.

    Then don't play the mod? You aren't a paying customer. I won't speak for others but I personally couldn't care less if you stop playing this mod and never come back. I personally hope people try this mod and new players pick it up but those new players need to have more grit than people like you in order to contribute, IMO.

    I guess I'll get hyperbolic too- this view of the game is literally as wrong as you can get. You're the worst kind of ignorant person- the kind that is extremely confident in their misinformed ideas.

    The people working on this mod do it as a hobby in their spare time. I'm sorry but you come across as an entitled brat.
     
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  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    OK, thank you. Just so you know, you can upload images directly to this forum using the 'Upload a File' button. 'Insert...' -> 'Spoiler' from the formatting menu above the comment section is also very useful :).

    From what you have posted, the smallest value you have done against a land unit is 4 damage - which while very small is not the same 2 damage (it is effectively double). Many of the examples you give are significantly higher than that as well - 8, 9, and 31 damage in one case. So while I empathise with your situation and your archers are not very strong in the situations you find yourself in, it is not quite how you described it either.

    It's true that against a UU like Carthage's Quiquireme, archers are practically useless. That is both a more advanced unit and a Unique Unit though. Fighting Quinquiremes is pretty difficult in general! (If someone has advice in that area I'd be happy to hear it myself.) You are also doing relatively little damage against Carthage's spearmen which I can understand is concerning. In that case though, you also have multiple horsemen which spears specialise against. In that situation probably 4 spears or 3 spears and 2 archers would be the ideal defense :).
    That said, please keep feedback civil even if you feel the person you are responding to is not. Personal attacks tend to escalate things rather than help.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  13. ashendashin

    ashendashin King

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    Events were in 4 but I never got into it myself. G built the event framework in the community patch. WW was in 3 but I'm not sure about it being inspired as it was only added after some heavy discussion on high unit counts and such.
     
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  14. Gobbledygook5000

    Gobbledygook5000 Chieftain

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    There's more than one person in this thread saying that you shouldn't even try to settle on the coast. Don't settle on the coast. In Civilization. What else can be said to that except that the current version is simply broken? If you want new players at least try and keep it in the realm of reasonable balance. I get that it's a mod, and people work hard on it for free, but generally in mods & games this old things have reached a settled state. I guess I shouldn't be trying the newest beta, but using the official version on the site, but I figured the beta would be more about bug-fixes and minor adjustments rather than massive changes. I spent a lot of time in several games only to have it end in total frustration with complete slaughter by AI units that have literally 7+ promotions while I haven't even had time to get a Barracks up. So yeah, I was pissed.

    Really? Then explain to me your strategy for winning on the higher difficulty levels because I'd love to hear it. As I said before it seems the only legit strategy is going with authority, spamming military units, and taking out nearby Civs as soon as possible. And no one has yet to counter that with an alternate strategy. As for going Tradition or Progress, a couple of people have simply said "it's possible." Please, tell me how? Maybe if you get an extremely lucky, isolated spawn with a convenient choke point, you could pull it off. But if you spawn in the center of the continent, surrounded by AI (as I have for my games so far,) I really can't see how.
     
  15. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I just won an immortal game and had coastal cities. In the current version it can be difficult to defend coastal cities mostly because ironclads' city attack is a bit high after some recent changes to city CS. But it's not impossible or broken- it's just easier to settle inland and then not have to worry about defending against navies where it's harder to outmaneuver the AI. My guess is that I could play chieftain difficulty, settle nothing but coastal cities, not build a single ship, and manage to not lose a single city. You're talking about things you don't have a firm grasp of- again, you're ignorant and don't even realize that you're ignorant which is the worst kind of ignorance.

    I personally don't care at all if you play this mod. In fact, if you're this entitled and this lacking in grit then I'd prefer that you don't play it. Other new players that do have some grit will play and take time to learn the new mechanics before throwing a tantrum on the forum.

    VP is a pretty big mod that is touching basically every aspect of the game. Not just the things you easily see in-game but also how the AI behaves tactically and strategically. It's a huge effort and every time the devs touch one portion of the game there are ripple effects that have to be worked out. City CS and naval balance is a good example- they recently rewrote how city CS is calculated and one effect of that is that melee navy does too much damage to cities now. My guess is they are fixing that in the next version. Until then players are adjusting to still have fun in the game until the fix is out. If you don't want to participate in the latest beta then, like others have suggested, go play a more safe release.

    On second thought, if you got manhandled that badly by the AI then going to a "safe release" rather than a beta isn't going to solve the issue. You're apparently playing at way too high of a difficulty or something and/or need a lot more practice understanding the new mechanics in VP. Maybe do some reading in the strategy forum or read some of the photojournals? Maybe post specific strategy questions? Try something constructive rather than throwing a tantrum on the forums.

    I just won an Immortal game as China where I went Progress (though I did do some conquering in that game). Before that I won an Immortal game as Tradition India where I didn't take a single city. I wasn't isolated in any of those games (both times I believe my continent had 5 civs total). I wouldn't say that my starts were particularly lucky or strong in either game.

    I don't really know how to explain to you how to do it- I've been playing this mod a long time. I do know that your view of following a formula to win regardless of what civ you're playing or what the individual conditions of the game are is completely, hopelessly wrong. Paying attention to the strengths of your civ and the conditions around you is of the utmost importance and I think everyone on this forum that's been playing the game for more than a week would agree with that. That's why there isn't a post in the strategy forum right now titled "follow these easy steps to win every game".

    If you want to get better and learn how to play VP I again suggest that you read the strategy forum, read photojournals, and post specific questions. Or, if you REALLY want to get better fast you should make a photojournal yourself and have better players critique your decisions.
     
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  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I had to laugh when you said that betas that old sure can't be that experimental. You have to meet Gazebo.

    If you really want to know how other players are doing things, there's a playthrough subfolder with plenty of examples. My usual suspect is that you didn't produce enough workers.
     
  17. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    So... the mod is still a work in progress. That's why we test the beta. Sometimes changes that are made are reversed. There was a patch where archers only had one range. A number of forum goers, including myself, vociferously complained and offered alternatives, including rather weak 2-range archers. So here we are right now.

    There do appear to be some bugs with city strength and an imbalance between naval units at a certain point and cities. I hope that those imbalances will be corrected on a future patch.

    A few patches ago, people were complaining that immortal and deity were too easy. So now... here we are. I've won... 2 games on deity this patch? I've probably started 10+ games though. I enjoy the challenge. I'm not sure how to win playing mostly peacefully on deity on this patch, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. But if its supposed to be deity... it isn't supposed to be easy. I've dropped down to playing an emperor game so that I could have fun and do some more nonstandard things. Deity is less forgiving for deviations in the name of fun.

    Right now, the AI is really good. If I only have a few troops, the AI takes advantage. I'm enjoying the challenge. Even on Emperor, the AI is still strong.

    With all of the above said, Vox Populi is the reason that I'm still playing Civilization V. The AI is good enough to beat me. The civilizations have interesting abilities and I'm still learning how to play the game to win, particularly as different balance changes are made.

    Part of the challenge of the mod is also learning about certain civilizations. If Carthage is in my game and near me, I am really careful about settling coastal cities. Because quinqeremes will take cities very quickly and land units will have trouble holding them off.

    Anyways, welcome to the forums, thank you for the feedback. Personally, I think archers are a tad too weak. I'd like them buffed to 5/6. Currently, I don't really bother with archers that often in the ancient era. But they have their place in certain scenarios.
     
  18. tommytoxen

    tommytoxen Warlord

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    Sounds like you need to lower the difficulty level until you get a hang of the game and come up with a strategy that works for you. Read the strategic advice forums here, they helped me a lot when I first started the mod.

    The first time I played this mod on prince.. that's PRINCE (considered EASY to VP players) everything was going great, i got 4 cities up, I had a little army using the same composition I'd used before that always worked for me etc then got declared war on by greece.

    i have never, ever lost a war until then. I got DESTROYED, he was building and throwing troops at me faster than I could take them out and he completely overran my modest little country. But I had fun, it was infact the most fun war I've ever had to that point. So I agree with above posters, if you don't find challenge fun then maybe it isn't the mod for you. Just use Whoard's simple better AI dll or something. Alternatively as I said lower the difficulty level until you get the hang of it and read the strategy forums.

    Use terrain to your advantage. Settle where you can use hills & rivers to your advantage. Chop down any forests that are around your cities so your archers and artillery have line of sight and to stop enemy retreating into them to use for defensive bonuses. One mistake I made when I first started playing was not using skirmish units & hit and run tactics enough. They can be a game changer.
     
  19. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    Tho i'll have to abandon the amazing match i'm currently playing as a warmonger tradition Ethipoia :lol::lol: this is actually a good idea, i'll think of this as an opportunity to do my very first photo journal .... the settings i'll use are Emperor difficulty, Standard size, Epic speed, Communitas map, strategic balanced resources, no ruins, no tech brokering, events are on and Venice is not on the list of civs that could spawn so no one would get free settling spots.
    I'll try to play wide progress and win a culture victory as Greece EDIT: or the Celts ... maybe Byzantium idk lol .... i'll reroll the map only if i get an extremely good start like Coral, Whales or any god of the sea exploitable start so i get an average one. [does this make sense?]
    If you are interested i'll be posting this in the photo journal section.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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  20. Gobbledygook5000

    Gobbledygook5000 Chieftain

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    I would like to do that, actually, but I don't know how. Did a quick search and couldn't find anything clear & simple.

    Also, I went back to the Legacy version (6-12) and I'm getting told 14 turns to build a mine! Er... Is this right? Gold mine, specifically.
     

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