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New Beta Version - March 15th (3-15)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Mar 15, 2020.

  1. jdevo

    jdevo Chieftain

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    New York City
    Is there a way to specialize cities in VP like CivIV? As much as I love this mod that’s the one main feature I miss.
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
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    1.) We don't ignore input from new users.
    2.) We don't ignore input on older threads.
    3.) We do ignore rants, as they're not productive.
    4.) The 'new user experience' for VP can be tricky, but the key is to note that you're playing an entirely new game. You aren't playing Civ4 or vanilla Civ 5 - if you're approaching VP trying to replicate those games, you missed the point.
    5.) If you want to play Civ 4, please, do so! It's a great game. But VP is not Civ 4, and it isn't trying to be.
    6.) Cities aren't supposed to run out of things to build in a standard playthrough. VP isn't about 'specializing' cities like Civ4, it is about setting up construction priorities and making discrete choices.

    G
     
  3. 2506

    2506 Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2020
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    I think your lack of experience with VP prevents you from seeing the depth that underlies its complexity. Successful players don't spend an entire game putting out fires, because they have taken the time to learn the game, and persevere through the ongoing beta process. You can see their proctive strategies on every level from King on up, not just Deity players. Just check the playthoughs and game reports.

    I can see why you might miss some aspects of Civ 4, but I don't agree that it has more depth regarding city strategy. Players do specialize some cities in VP, but not the way you do in Civ 4, which is really pretty elementary.
     
    InkAxis and tu_79 like this.
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Actually, we do specialize our cities. There are guild cities, there are military cities, there are trading cities and even outpost cities. I sometimes settle in far away islands so I can control the seas. Their value in yields is not good, but their tactical value is of utmost importance. Ask the brits about the Maldives.

    It's just that you are not forced to specialize in this way because of how bonuses stack.
     
    jdevo and InkAxis like this.
  5. MontyJava

    MontyJava Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2020
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    41
    Yes, I get that there is some city specialization you can do and I do, but it is significantly flatter than before (the utter lack of economy strat threads sort of points to that), and I feel just a few tweaks, particularly to nat wonders and moving back to focusing on %yields changes, would give a lot back there. Hermitage went from +100% to +10% here...

    I also feel it's reasonable to respectfully disagree with a design approach, even if you're not expert level yet. I love a lot of what the team has done and is doing, but there are areas that drag on the overall experience, and for me #1 is buildings, though similar comments can be aimed at the policies system.

    There is a lot of complexity, and a lot of building choices end up being unfocused. You've got culture buildings that give commerce boosts to other culture buildings, buildings that don't directly improve yields themselves but through others (bank), defense buildings that give science (barracks etc), growth buildings that give defense (lighthouse), happiness buildings that give production (arena), commerce buildings that give culture primarily (customs house), and buildings that both cost maintenance and provide gold... I mean it's just all over the place, much doesn't even make sense. Then throw in a bunch of special policy/pop/etc conditions, and random effects like per-pop-increase yields or one-time yields or "love the king day starts" or "only during golden ages" and such...

    I don't feel I'm being unfair calling it overly and needlessly complex. And there is a definite issue with this design approach, in that it becomes increasingly difficult to actually make an informed decision on what to build when each building has 5+ seemingly random effects to it of different sort: one time, per pop, per certain tile, base yield, etc. Like, I'm trying to balance all these interests in my head to make a choice, doing calculations, and it's hard to even ascertain the relative effect of a one-time boost versus a per-pop boost versus happiness mods, and then to have to do that across 5 or 10 options, relate them to one another and my current needs, and then recognize that only a few of the options have any singular clear yield/happiness purpose...

    You reach an inflection point with this sort of complexity where it stops making game decisions more interesting and starts just wearing down the player with too much to consider and balance mentally.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
    jdevo likes this.
  6. 2506

    2506 Warlord

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    Feb 23, 2020
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    You may want to re-read what I wrote: "Players do specialize some cities in VP, but not the way you do in Civ 4." What difference there is lies in the two games' mechanics.

    A lot of worthwhile points here. I agree that VP is often overly complex, and probably needlessly so at times. I can see how that complexity can obscure depth. But it doesn't mean VP lacks it. I mainly disagreed with that conclusion.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2020
    tu_79 likes this.
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    You are free to respectfully disagree. We are a community of fans that have been playing and tweaking this game to our tastes, pestering ol Gazebo with our wishlists. For. Years. It's the game We like, and we are still trying to make it even better. Every new tester is free to offer a new view point, and ask for changes, but we ask you to familiarize with the game first before suggesting core changes. Beat the game at least in King with a couple of different victory conditions. Different civs. Try to learn what is it all about. This is so different to Brave New World, that it could be Civ V and a half. And once you know the game, we will listen. If you want some insights, check the playthroughs section, there are a few warmonger runs.

    So far, you are like me the first time I came here, demanding changes for things I barely understood. It's interesting how the mod feels for people trying it the first time, and much effort has been made to make it more friendly for rookies. You wouldn't believe the effort that we put into the happiness mechanic. I could write a full essay with the 6 to 8 months we spent designing, testing, debating, tweaking, redesigning again, and again. The pitfalls and imbalances that lie in pretty much any other happiness system.

    One of the big problems of having fun with a domination play, as you put it, is that it is almost impossible to beat domination victory for a human player. No other victory condition can possibly happen first. Our goal was to force, in a soft way, a later domination victory so you can only achieve it at the time where other players are about to win too. In other words, if you have too much fun with domination, then we can have no fun with any other victory condition. Now it is more balanced.

    Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I was agreeing with you. :thumbsup:
     
  8. MontyJava

    MontyJava Chieftain

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    @tu_79 I feel I'm familiar enough with the game at this point to make suggestions. I've played probably 40+ hours in the past month now, plus maybe another 40+ hours a couple years back. That should be sufficient to get a feel for things. Much of what I'm criticizing here is just general approach to things rather than "newb not git gud enough yet" rants. I don't mind a challenge, that's why I came to this mod in the first place. I am very thrilled with the added challenge of the new diplomacy system, I enjoyed losing the last two games on prince in the end. I'll probably be remembering (fondly mostly) the last game for a long time. I was on the home stretch to 1st place and got curbstomped right near the end. It was exactly what I've wanted from civ5 and could never get. Difficulty-wise, my only real complaint is naval city assaults being unbalanced, but I just don't settle coastal cities anymore, so easy fix there I guess.

    Secondly, you should consider relative newcomers' opinions as much as veterans' since they're the sort of people you need to recruit to keep a healthy playerbase. If newcomers are put off by design principles, that's going to hurt the community in the long run as recruitment dries up. Granted, it's an aging game and polished mod now, so arguably not as important as when the mod was first being developed.

    Thirdly, I don't play dom victories and I don't do extreme warmongering unless it's necessary or I find myself in a position to be able to easily. I just play out the T500 clock for fun. I do not follow specific VCs, never have really, I find it makes civ less enjoyable. I keep VCs enabled for the AIs, but none has reached one by T500 in my games yet. I'm not really here to discuss that, anyway. Buildings/policies design is my sticking point and is really dragging down my experience and my will to continue on with the full mod, which is unfortunate because there is so much about it I love otherwise. A lot of things are better balanced and more complex in a good way.
     
    CrazyG, Deljade and vyyt like this.
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Ok, ok.

    We take newcomers opinions for what it's worth. And in fact, we've already modified quite a few interfaces in their behalf. I take it also as a personal endeavor to check whether people playing on lower levels can get the right experience.

    Thing is, with just 80 hours we can't take your entitled opinion seriously. Yet.
    Had you come here first asking what you are doing wrong, had you understood the mechanics and beat them, your opinion would have had a different ring on our ears. Maybe you are right and this last beta has some problem happiness wise, but it has not been the case for the last months.

    So tell us, what do you think it's currently wrong with happiness? Is it luxuries? City states rewards? Scalers? What way did you push the mechanics so it constraints you that much? Have you taken a look at how other people are dealing with it?
     
  10. rp03ev

    rp03ev Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2011
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    70
    is there a way to download this version now? that mega link not valid anymore.
     

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