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New Beta Version - March 15th (3-15)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Mar 15, 2020.

  1. Patee

    Patee Chieftain

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    But this makes cities on island undefendable, thus settling this type of cities is a waste..
     
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  2. Recursive

    Recursive Deity

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    Incorrect city name is a bug, I'd report it on Github.
     
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  3. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    Only if you can have a dominant navy. Not possible on some difficulties.
     
  4. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    Feedback from my two recent games on Continents, Standards:
    1/ Netherlands, Immortal: I went Progress but got forward-settled so I ended up fairly tall with 5 cities for most of the game.
    It was overall a good, dynamic game, but I quit around Modern due to burning out from incessant wars. I may pick it back up later on because it's not clear what the outcome will be:
    Egypt, on the other continent, has been the front-runner the whole game, nabbing 75% of Wonders up until Renaissance, being 10 tech and 5 policies ahead at one point... but I'm pretty happy that I clawed my way back up. Thanks, Netherlands UA, for your huge culture and gold! When I stopped, Egypt was "only" 2 or 3 tenets and 3 to 5 techs ahead.
    But for now I dominate the World Congress, so I may still win that way.

    Overall I can't complain too much about the wars, because they are smart play on the AI part: when I started dominating the WC, it started hating on me harder and harder. I got wars declared in turn by neighbours than by far-flung civ, I got Decolonized (with a fairly overwhelming vote! Thankfully I had 3-4 Spheres of Influence already), ... Probably some of the late wars started because my military score had also been weakened by a few deaths?

    But I'm eager to see how a smarter AI accounting for past battles (the work started recently, by Heathcliff notably) can help the human player, because it still felt a little like ganging up, probably in part due to supply: after all, while I dominate the WC, Egypt still dominates in every other regards, and they don't get as many wars. Perhaps their army is beefier, thanks to tech advance and larger supply.


    2/ Arabia, Emperor/Immortal hybrid (I picked the 7x multiplier for instant bonuses from Immortal instead of 5x for Emperor, and forced the pick of the best option).
    This one is still ongoing. I wanted to see what a cultural victory would be like given the tourism changes of recent months, since I feel like I've seen fewer civ become influential with other civ - and very few AI picking Artistry.
    The Celts dominated the early game in runaway fashion, snatching many Wonders along the way, but again I managed to slowly catch up.
    Predictably, I've run straight into the new diplo modifier for Wonder builders - but hey, what else are you going to do as Arabia? :D
    So several AI are starting to declare on me... and I have 2 coastal cities. For now I've managed to hold with Musketmen, Cavalry and just a couple of Corvettes, but I fear the era of Ironclads!

    What impressed me was that the Celts just swallowed up pretty much all Zulu cities in just a handful of turns... It's likely due in part to tech advance; I also suspect Zulus (far away) were weakened by other neighbours even before the Celts, but still! Now the Celts have something like 12 cities and are still in the lead in all regard, so I'll probably never become Influential over them despite all my Wonders and GP...


    Overall impression: I keep getting more impressed by the AI, so good job!
    Also, while there are still AI runaways, and other AI never catch up to them, it seems I can sometimes do it, so it feels better.
    But I think I'll tone down early AI bonuses and increase mid and late bonuses for my games, to see how it changes gameplay.


    Balance Thoughts:
    - We mentioned Chanceries have been stealth-nerfed, but Wire Services too! Only +1 C / +1 S now... That's too low, for sure, at this late stage and given their high maintenance cost: if we keep this scaling so as not to favour diplo civ too much (which is OK), then they need some fixed yield - perhaps +2 C/S as base.

    - I agree with Stalker's analysis on naval units, based on my own games.
    In the current meta, if you're Tall you're better off not settling any coastal city, which is a bit absurd.
    So I'd like to see naval units toned down just a bit, especially Ironclads.

    - where does the AI tourism come from??
    I'm Arabia so I have a lot of GW, but then I look at the Tourism screen and I see AI with more cities, fewer Wonders and no Tourism-related UA with equivalent or higher Tourism compared to mine. I really don't know how to explain it.
    Perhaps with higher Prod and higher Pop, they build the guilds earlier and work them all non-stop? I'm not quite convinced though.

    - are the AI instant bonuses based on "median Era for all civ" in this patch, an option that was mentioned before?
    If not, I'd really like to try it that way in the next.
     
  5. Recursive

    Recursive Deity

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    It's based on the average era.
     
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  6. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    OK, then I'll stop deluding myself that it was skill: this adjustment is probably what allowed me to catch up this time around. :)
     
  7. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Just played a game as Byzantium (Emperor, Huge map, Epic Speed).

    My experience with this beta (with the hotfixes) has been pretty good :). AI early agression is back. When I met Japan they had already captured cities belonging to the Netherlands. Later (still in the Classical Era) Spain and I declared a joint war on Polynesia!

    I got rather lucky in terms of early ruins, city-states, and not having any neighbours right on my doorstep. I went for the Oracle but got beat to it by The Ottomans (who had a tech lead). I was able to build Angkor Wat before anyone else though and was able to expand relatively freely. After unlocking my UB and enhancing and reforming my religion I was able to take the lead and also build Machu Picchu, the Forbidden Palace, and Himeji Castle. That last one came in particularly handy as the extra supply came into play right in the middle of a war. And I was able to build it in 1 turn thanks to Way of Transcendence :).

    Wonders among the AI seem well distributed - no runaways or hoarders. The two civs in the lead after me (The Ottomans and The Shoshone) are those who build a couple of wonders and also founded a religion. I like the balance so far - I'm seeing more variety in who takes the lead, and it also changes over time. And while I'm in the lead the Ottomans established the World Congress before I had met two of the other civs. I didn't have enough votes at the time to propose a resolution either! So my next goal is to ally city-states and take control of the congress so that my rivals can't use it against me.

    I tried Goddess of Renewal in this game and it was actually pretty decent. The faith scales slowly, so if I was playing a different civ I might have had trouble founding. As Byzantium I didn't have to worry so much though, and it gave me some very nice culture and science. It does require more work to make worthwhile in terms of micro-management, and you have to be willing to leave lots of forest/jungle unchopped. The yields are great in the long-term though. Especially once you get to Education and Machinery for Universities and Lumber Mills.

    Spoiler Amazonian :
    20200324072419_1.jpg

    Spoiler Full Jungle Yields :
    20200325060746_1.jpg

    I'm still of the opinion that it's mainly useful for forest/jungle camp starts because otherwise you loose the terrain feature when you improve the resource, and you are better off with Springtime or something else. It does seem like it was the right choice in this situation though, and I imagine it's very strong in the hands of someone like the Iroquois or the Maya. I also considered Goddess of the Hunt with this start, to compliment my camp monopoly. It doesn't really seem worthwhile though unless you are a) in the Tundra or b) have other camp resources around like deer and bison.

    One mistake I made was not realising that the era bonus from Transcendence scales with followers. I spread pretty slowly intially and was disappointed when I entered the Medieval Era. I had allowed spain to convert a number of my cities in order to purchase Cathedrals which they had chosen. Ramped up my religious spread from that point though so got some very nice yields upon entering the Renaissance (hence speedy Himeji Castle). A couple of other details that I overlooked was that Universities grant science on jungle tiles, and that the Caravansary is the building that buffs Furs. Details like that would have changed my build order so I'll try to remember them for next time.

    In terms of bugs I didn't notice many happily. Most of the issues I experienced in the previous beta have happily been resolved! One strange thing did happen to me though. I acquired a diplo bonus for resurrecting Spain even though that never happened. No idea what happened there. I think it turned up after I declared war on Polynesia (again) to help Spain who was being attacked. I hadn't actually done anything yet (that I'm aware of) when I got the bonus though. It's a one-off so far though.

    The AI does sometimes offer very high values for strategic resources, so I wonder if they are still overvaluing them slightly. That said, the amount they are willing to pay goes down significantly if they don't like you so I guess in a sense favourable terms are like a reward for good diplomacy. Luxuries seem about right. The AI is perhaps a little too hopeful in their deal offers though. Makes sense to offer perhaps 75% of what you are willing to pay, but not 50% IMO.

    Spoiler I had a lot of Iron :
    20200325053133_1.jpg

    I did get denounced by a number of civs. I denounced a couple civs myself though, and am leading the world in score, tech and wonders. I am also aggressively competing for city-states. So kind makes sense. I haven't been caught in any world wars though! Most people I've fought at once is 2 and that was me declaring war on them.

    I'm confused about this myself!
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
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  8. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    Deity seems a little easy, however I am still after only one playthrough, and I had no obvious runaways. And I played authority, so tradition experience may be different. I don't like strategic resources price at all, it's very overtuned, I am not selling them anymore, it feels like cheating. I think if we cut it in half, it would be just all right, much more than in the previous versions, but not too gamey. It creates a situation beneficial only to the player, because most players, will never buy strategics, they will just use crossbows and pikeman instead of swords, and sell iron to the AI for great profit.

    I really cannot stop myself from conquering and redeveloping Poland, playing as Germany requires some responsibilities. Is everything all right with the culture output? Mine exploded four times in under 50 turns. I had a slight lead before, and I have many wonders, but I am authority, statecraft, industry, autocracy, who completely screwed up war with England, taking only two cities, getting bogged for 100 turns in the jungle meat-grinder, and letting them be vassalized by someone else, not three-city tradition with lots of theming bonuses. I am extremely stupid also. I produced one great work myself, though I am in nearly permanent golden age. I have Armaier, which was the first corporation by far, but can it produce 1000 culture out of thin air? Shouldn't be happening on deity if you ask me. Also, why are all AI less happy than me? I am a warmonger who annexed around ten cities. I had laughable 50 unhappiness for 200 happiness with the biggest population. Is that as it should be?

    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
  9. SilentReply

    SilentReply Chieftain

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    I've noticed that locking cities on avoid growth will reduce the unhappiness produced by the city over time. It adds that unhappiness to the expected increase upon growth. Not sure whether that is intended. As a result you can eventually reach 100% happiness by doing so.
     
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  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Trying a game where I set the arsenal CS boost to +24 CS. This puts cities in the mid to high 50's.

    So far:

    1) Arsenals start to make corsairs obsolete for taking cities, though the AI was slow to build them. Frigates can do alright damage but they also take a lot of damage in return, so they have little staying power. Overall, this is what I expect from a new tier of defense buildings, similar to how castles make older tier units unviable for sieges.

    2) For Ironclad/Cruisers...my logistics cruisers are doing ~45 damage, still repectable. My BP III ironclads are also doing about 45 damage and taking 11ish in return. With a field gun garrison, enemy cities are putting my cruisers below 50% for a salvo, so I have to constantly cycle out cruisers to maintain the siege...but at the same time I feel confident my units won't die unless they have more ranged units there.

    3) The CSes are holding out a bit longer than before, though even with Arsenals they will not stand a sustained naval hit from an enemy....they can just do it for more than 2 rounds before folding like paper.

    So far I'm pretty happy with these numbers. I'm still taking cities with Ironclad/Cruiser...but I'm not just waltzing in and taking them now either.
     
  11. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    That's really just not true. Strategics are very important.

    Well you're in first place so probably you are in the lead in policies which helps. Also, you have completed Industry and are using the culture process in multiple cities. That's probably a factor in both your culture output and your happiness. Although Armeir is probably the biggest factor in culture. It literally generates culture if you have offices in your cities so it's not like it's coming 'out of thin air'.
     
  12. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    I think this is a great point and should be adopted as development design. Unless you have an absolute overwhelming force it should work like that for every era.

    Maybe you are right. But from my experience this is the right thing to and I see it frequently in Just like selling most luxuries early for gold. It is just standard.

    About culture: I forgot about processess, yes I had them in several cities, because they builded everything that was worthbuilding already. I also captured Sistine. I had offices in every cities and many franchises. However IIRC Armeier gives only +2 culture and 10% of culture from something. But it is insane how it scales. I think corporations may provide a little over the top bonuses.

    Locking or simply don't growing doesn't reduce unhappiness in itself but you are right, it is intended. You just have time to boost yields and build infrastructure which in turn counter needs. Needs are updated on the new citizen birth. You can check it by hoovering over citizen screen, it shows how need will go up.
    In most wide games when you are winning, you have a lead in population, cities and production already by industrial and growth doesn't provide nothing of value. With current value of food, most good players will lock or slow it tremedously by industrial.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Ok, but what did it do to same-era siege units?

    G
     
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  14. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    Moreover if you want to improve the durability of your coastal cities against naval attacks, why dont you just buff mine field ?

    Instead of giving an all around improvement leaving the land sieging in a bad/boring spot
     
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  15. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    It's not just +2 culture, it's +2 culture per franchise :). So yes, it produces an incredible amount of culture (even with a limit on the number of franchises you can have). The same is true for corportations that gives gold, food, science etc!

    I think corporations are intended to have a big impact as at that point in the game there aren't a lot of things that can shake things up in a big way (corporations are one of them). That said, they obviously aren't all equal - check the balance thread on corporations to see the discussion on the subject.
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    A good question. So currently my standard Siege II Volley artillery are facing cities in the range of:

    low 50s (weak city): ~73 damage a shot.
    low 60s (standard city): 61
    mid 70s (CS): 48

    Currently there is almost no anti-warmonger bonuses on either side, so those numbers are nicely unspoiled.

    On said mid 70s city, I have a Drill II City Assault Gurella doing 32 damage and taking 11ish.


    An excellent point, this would be more of a scalpel change to address navy specific issues. Here are some counterpoints:
    • While Navy strength is getting the attention right now, I personally think cities are too weak past the arsenal phase...period. Now with navy its very noticeable because of how quickly the ships can bring that force to bear....and coastal/island cities tend to be the first ones hit in a war. But once land units are at a cities doorstep that city can't hold out, even with the latest and greatest city defenses.
    • Flavorwise, you have the issue that this city is very resistant to land attacks because of a "naval" mine field. And if you say "well those mines are on land too", than the question is "well then why can't I build mine fields on land?" These flavor questions don't bother me much personally, but there are people using the mod in which these things matter a great deal.
    • Historically we have not required strategic resources for standard defensive armament. The mine field up till now has been a minor defensive boost who gave the special ability to slow down ships. We could change that of course, but do we want a player to have iron in order to defend their cities?
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2020
  17. SilentReply

    SilentReply Chieftain

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    The thing is I think this may be occurring without increasing the yields/infrastructure in the city. In the attached image, I locked this city several turns prior because due to unhappiness. I am fairly certain the yields have not changed, yet the unhappiness has decreased, while the expected increase in unhappiness for the next citizen (6) has gone up. I actually did this across many cities, and the same thing occured. Unfortunately I started a new game and don't have the autosaves to confirm.
     

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  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Can someone help me understand manufactured goods a bit more? Until 10 turns ago, I was the number in this category. Now, not only is Assyria beating me, they are basically double my numbers. I am currently on complete production process for project, so its not a scenario where he is doing that and I am not.

    What would caused the numbers to just up so quickly?

    Spoiler :




    EDIT: Okay must be a refresh error, when I checked again, he's beating me, but the numbers are much closer...so I can believe these.

    Spoiler :

    upload_2020-3-25_15-35-25.png
     

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  19. SilentReply

    SilentReply Chieftain

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    It may have been due to a temporary boost such as the bonus the AI receives for entering a new era. They love to do this when a world congress project is under construction, for instance :)
     
  20. andersw

    andersw Emperor

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    Emperor game as Spain, some AI's did better than others, a strong Authority/statecraft Persia stomped and vassaled Denmark but without taking danish capital.
    I had Germany as close neighbour and he's usually a pushover was here as well.
    Aztecs and Mongolia forward settled each other and there was plenty of wars.
    Byzantium grabbed her land and then didnt do much.
    Persia who I took out last was mostly on tech parity with me, but without a flanking fleet, attacking on multiple fronts generally opens on a hole somewhere.
     
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