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New Beta Version - March 28th (3-28)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Mar 28, 2019.

  1. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Like every other building, it comes down to whether the input costs in a particular city are worth the potential output. Late game, that leaves them closer to ubiquitous than niche.
     
  2. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    As before, factories compete with ironclads/destroyers/missile cruisers. If they are meant to be ubiquitous, then Bwawb's situation occurs, where cruisers outnumber ironclads 3:1, when the balance, in my opinion, should be somewhere in the other direction.

    If factories are meant to be ubiquitous, I would suggest something like either Train Stations/Seaports or Factories requiring Iron. Can a building require one of each resource?
     
  3. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

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    We could return factories to triggering ideologies...
     
  4. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    I think having to balance seaports vs. factories is the right way to do things, otherwise you will be able to get both production boosts in most cities rather than having to choose where to use your coal.

    I agree that ironclads vs. production buildings means that cruisers tend to be the preffered naval unit though, whereas it seems that having a balance between the two would be most interesting. Perhaps the change to cruisers will help there.

    I'm looking forward to the changes to urbanisation. What is proposed may be a little too much, but IMO it's a good mechanic (especially on guilds). Probably we just need to test it out and find where the right balance is.
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  5. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I don't know if factories are meant to be ubiquitous. Out of context, they probably would be be. But if you want to factor military needs and adjust resource requirements accordingly, then you probably need to calculate a lot more than the ideal ubiquity of coal-resourced buildings.

    Whether a change toward a more perfect balance would be an improvement is a different question. I don't worry about it, because I always focus on navies, and always have enough coal for as many melee ships as I need, and for enough factories and seaports to build them. (In fact,my sense is that I run out of iron before I do coal.) Regardless, I guess that a warmonger who doesn't want to compromise would feel differently.
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think a warmonger should find themselves torn between industrializing and navy-building. Otherwise, again, there's no downside to just expanding and 'having your cake,' so to speak. Wide needs to have drawbacks beyond just the time-gating of % cost increases for policies and techs. It needs to be a playstyle choice with a distinct set of rules and goals, not an ideal goal for all civs.

    G
     
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  7. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    The idea that wide warmongering civs need to be torn between industrializing and navy building is fine. But it isn't working (imo, having just played a stupidly wide ~30 city Mongolia), and instead the Coal balance is messing with naval balance for everyone. I don't build more than a small handful of Ironclads (and later) as warmongers not because I'm low on Coal, but because ranged naval units are vastly superior offensively, since I'm going to be rotating them out from ocean and have more than enough supply cap and Iron to spare. And since Coal can be used to unlock these extremely strong production buildings on top of that, why would I bother building more than the absolute minimum necessary melee naval units to take coastal cities? I won't, I'll use my Coal to industrialize and use my industrialized cities to build twice as many Cruisers and then later planes, carriers, and subs. And that's what I did, I built around 5 Ironclads and everything else was Cruisers and later subs, carriers, planes.

    That's the issue, imo, that Coal is so important for making strong cities that you can't really afford to waste it on units, and when the stronger half of the naval duo is also using the less valuable resource, it warps balance significantly. And frankly once subs are around it gets even worse.
     
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  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I want to be careful about co-mixing the issues. Ultimately factory balance is a building issue, it has nothing to do with naval balance. We should ensure factories are a worthwhile investment.

    After that, we can decide if naval needs adjustment because of certain strategic resource scarcities.
     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Yes they are. Gardens aren't restricted to freshwater in VP. It's 2 free specialists in medieval. Maybe that's fine, I dunno.

    If I were to choose 1, it would be Gardens. They're a pretty uncomplicated building, and it fits their GP focus more than the workshop does.
     
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  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Correct, they require aqueducts, mea culpa. Nevertheless, I don't see an issue, gardens are still niche.

    G
     
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  11. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    It absolutely does. How powerful the factory is directly impacts the decision making process on how many Ironclads to build.
     
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  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Right, but to me that is not the decision in balancing the factory. The decision is "are the bonuses the factory provides worth the cost"?

    Once that is established, we can then say "hey factories take all this coal...does that make ironclads too weak?"
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Making shipyard and railroad station require iron should help balancing naval composition and would relieve coal a little bit.
     
  14. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I'll chime in to say that even when playing as a wide warmonger, there's just never enough Coal to make all the Ironclads, Factories, and Seaports/Rail Stations that I want, but there's almost always enough Iron to make all the Cruisers, Field Guns/Artillery, and Minefields that I might need. I know VP isn't interested in adjusting the resource yields from map generation, but something needs to be done. Either Iron and Coal need to be tweaked at the map generation level or the buildings and units that require them need to be tweaked, but currently the balance feels really off.

    I agree with two of the proposed solutions: A) Swap the Iron/Coal requirements for Cruisers/Ironclads or B) Change Seaports/Rail Stations to use Iron instead of Coal or even C) Seaports use Iron instead of Coal but Rail Stations remain as needing Coal.

    Rail Stations requiring Coal makes sense (as laying railroads across your empire doesn't actually use up any of your Coal resources), but Seaports requiring Coal has always felt arbitrary just to keep them in line with Rail Stations. I say let those two mutually exclusive buildings differ on the strategic resource they require as well. The choice of which to build almost always comes down to city location rather than availability of resources, and as it stands currently I'll always choose to build a Seaport/Rail Station over a Factory.
     
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  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    I'd say that a railroad requires a lot more of iron than coal.
     
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  16. Voker57

    Voker57 Warlord

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    Is Communitas intended to have extra Oil/Coal resources compared to, say, Terra?

    On Terra, player is lucky to have 10 coal total, while on Communitas every town basically has own coal mine, and oil is abundant too.
     
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  17. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    The strategic resources of late-game units has always been about game balance and has never been grounded in reality. It isn't worth arguing which strategic makes "more" sense for a unit when literally all of them use Oil/Uranium and Aluminum/Iron (at least, they are best represented by these, since a lot of resources are excluded). It is completely arbitrary from a realism standpoint whether you choose the unit to be based off fuel source or composition material.
     
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  18. Grabbl

    Grabbl Prince

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    Yes, Communitas has plenty of some strategic resources in comparison with other maps (too many in fact, as some would argue).
     
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  19. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Communitas way more strategic and bonus resources than the default maps, even on sparse.
     
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  20. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Any idea why I'm not receiving Aluminum from this CS? (That is a mine on it.)
    Spoiler :



    Do I need to wait for the CS to have the tech? Or am I missing something else?
     

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