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New Beta Version - May 5th (5/5)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, May 5, 2021.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Hey all,

    New beta inbound. It affects memory (thus saves), so I can't call it a hotfix. :)

    Not save-game compatible. Online as of 9:30pm CST.

    https://mega.nz/folder/2Jdw3aQT#Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA

    Cheers,
    Gazebo
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
    Gokudo01, Legen, mcdunne and 20 others like this.
  2. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    Wow those Defensive Spy actions, quite a treat there to see. Pilgrim seems strong, especially when wide. Apostolic is nerfed but thinking it over that is a very significant amount of free Faith. It's a very powerful belief for spreading now, and useful for powering Faith engines focused on other things in the lategame.
     
  3. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

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    • Pilgrim - removed Culture on spread; added +8 production and food to all following cities (flat, non-scaling
    That's a great Founder Belief to get started with.

    Good to see CounterSpies can be used for economic gain.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  4. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    Whenever a building finishes the tiles in the city unlock, I think. I don't have time to make a real bugrep now or test to make sure of this but people may want to be on the lookout for it.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Ask @ilteroi, he's the last one to touch city citizen logic. :)
     
  6. ilteroi

    ilteroi Prince

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    yeah yeah yeah. already fixed. new governor was a bit overeager.
     
    Smallson, Legen, Skidizzle and 3 others like this.
  7. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    I just started a game with the previous version... should I finish that one? It's always my dilemma
     
  8. General_Drax

    General_Drax Warlord

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    Finished yesterday in a rush but the minefields damaging your own navy were really a pain. I'd suggest upgrading. Beside the old spy system was overtuned the new one is a genuine new toy.
     
  9. usadefcon1

    usadefcon1 Warlord

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    Just started playing with the new spy system and here are my initial impressions:

    It's much more interesting than what we had before. After some balance it will definitely be an improvement.

    Yields from missions need to be based on what the target city is producing, not its security level. It's silly to pull 500 science as England at the beginning of the game.
    Mission outcomes based on target city yield makes it more interesting too because you will have different opportunities in different target cites.

    For my OCD it would be nice if the unavailable missions were at the bottom of the menu.

    The art is really cool, but a little out of place in the early eras.

    Would be cool to have Hideout missions which make the spy stronger... Tradecraft Training or something along those lines.
     
    Bromar1 and saamohod like this.
  10. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Warlord

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    A bit sad to see all that culture go away from 2 founders but I guess it was needed... I'm eager to try some new crazy apostolic combos with theodora :p

    I suppose the new Pilgrim bonus only applies to the player's following cities, not foreign?
     
    saamohod likes this.
  11. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Hideout is 'not a place' in the game (it's a null existence), so nothing can be tied to it.

    G
     
  12. saamohod

    saamohod King

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    I'd like to know why was that necessary? Was culture gain considered imbalanced?

    This question from me as well.
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Alright so lets take a look at England in the new version. Here is a level 2 spy before White Tower in a security 10 city (they are all security 10 at this point in the game). Lets get a feel for the missions:

    Disrupt Production
    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-5-6_11-11-5.png


    So if a World Wonder is in production, duration is halved, interesting. Still, too long a duration to be able to mess with wonders. How does the -500 prod work, since that is more than pretty much any single building. Does it just drop the current production to 0? (in which case its worth much less than 500). Or does it increase the cost of the current building? I'm curious how this actually plays out.

    Steal Gold
    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-5-6_11-11-24.png


    Duration is reasonable, its quicker than science which at least gives it some niche. Kill % is higher than I would like. 1000 gold seems pretty high but when you'll note my science numbers below....hard to tell if it really is.

    Disrupt Food
    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-5-6_11-11-39.png


    I do like the -25% growth mechanic much better than the food hit before. Scales more naturally and smoothly. Whether 25% is the right number....I'll have to think about. It is high kill chance, so that's part of the price. If the gold/science yields weren't so attractive I might consider this more, but it feels like a bit of a trap to weaken one cities growth compared to getting some big yields for yourself, especially at double the kill chance.


    Radicalize Citizenry
    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-5-6_11-12-6.png


    Duration is too long for this to be strategically viable at the moment. I think the strategic tile pillage could have bad scaling with different map settings. Example, I play with more abundant piles but each pile is lower, so this effects my game less. In other games, it could have a huge swing. Would it be possible to instead do it as "Pillage strategic resources totaling 2", so that could be 1 pile if that is a good pile. Or maybe just do a straight up -1 strategic for X turns....hmm, that might be too powerful not sure.

    Gain Science
    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-5-6_11-12-24.png


    So at first glance, 1000 :c5science: seems like a lot. But is it....lets check. So if I was doing an old school tech steal, I would probably get to take physics by the time I got the steal. And steals at this point for England are normally...15ish turns I believe.

    So that's 650 :c5science: / 15 = ~43 SPT. For a 20 turn duration ~32 SPT. The current mission is 1000 / 43 (assuming at least 1 travel time + 1 surveillance time) = ~23 SPT. Let me check a lower tech steal estimate. Lets say I got unlikely and only managed to get something like Drama and Poetry. 336 / 15 = ~22 SPT

    So our 1000 :c5science: is in the ballpark of reasonable for this point in the game, especially if we consider that it takes longer to get the benefit, and yields early > yields late, you could even argue that compared to tech stealing before its still fairly weak. However, my guess is that for England I could have gotten this right out of the gate, and 1000 :c5science: in the very early game is too much, so there needs to be a scale point here for england at least.


    Kidnap Specialists
    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-5-6_11-12-56.png


    Text isn't completely clear here. I assume both the penalty and benefit are a 10 turn duration, but you could read the top as a "permanent loss". Ultimately duration is way too long for this to be useful at this point in the game, but this one was generally better in low security cities so we can wait on it. I do think the kill chance should be 33% just to match the others, having a 2% difference does not change my assessment, and its good to be consistent to make the numbers easier to remember.

    Target Local Defenses
    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-5-6_11-13-16.png


    I can work with 21 turns as a prep for war kind of scenario, and that is my plan in this game. A high cost which is reasonable to me.


    Create Forgeries
    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-5-6_11-13-35.png


    So compared to Kidnap specialists, the kill chance is 5 less, the duration is longer, and I can focus on culture (which is the best yield especially at this point in the game. I think these should either be equal or this mission a little more costly, I think its the better of the two right now.

    Arm Local Populace
    Spoiler :

    upload_2021-5-6_11-13-52.png


    Would never do this with such a high duration, which is fine by me. I don't mind that a high security city is near impossible to cause rebellion. So we will see what it looks like as security starts to drop.
     
    glider1, kawyua and CrazyG like this.
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Is the Target local defenses mission supposed to work on the turn the mission completes or the turn after? If its the turn of, the mission is bugged and not working. I can't see the city at the moment to check if its the latter.

    Update: Ok I confirmed its bugged, to Github!
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ok new datapoint. I have my 2nd spy on the board, fresh and ready for murder! I found a security 3 city for Sweden. Offering 100 science at 6 turns (8 with travel time). So ~12.5 SPT....bleh, not worth it. However I could poison the well in the same time peroid, and throw on a 25% growth penalty to a fledgling 3 city for 20 turns....ok now that's worth it.

    So poisoning might become a small city thing and science steal against the big boys. That's a fine distinction, I can work with that.
     
  16. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Prince

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    This sounds so awesome! :) Thank you! :woohoo:

    I'm wondering if the bonuses from defensive spies are 'balanced out' somehow with slightly increased penalties (increased prod/gold/tech costs for example). But I guess it's fine, probably no need for it.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Rank 10 cities are supposed to be lengthy - early England stuff isn't necessarily indicative of the correct balance, as it is rare for all cities to be rank 10 at the same time (as they are before a civ gets spies).

    G
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So to finish up this run I ran a bunch of Duration 11 missions to cause rebellion in 3 Security 1 Assyrian cities (this is during the normal Statecraft + Renaissance Era). I figured giving him 15 enemy units to chew on would soften him and keep him from attacking me (as he was definately on the warpath).

    I'm going to call this game and try a non-england one. This is one of those games where I just felt "out of the slipstream". Constant unhappiness (hell it was so bad my capital was actually unhappy a good portion of the time and I had to build a public works), bottom score, endless wars....just not a fun game so I'll remake. I still scratch my head how these kinds of games happen, what play difference is causing me to fall so far behind in one game vs another.

    Maybe its jungle starts, I tend to find jungles just pretty damn tough early game, as it takes a lot of worker turns to get going and your not going to have a lot of hammers.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  19. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    Way of the Pilgrim is 8:c5food:8:c5gold: in game instead of 8:c5food:8:c5production: like in the notes, but maybe the ingame version is actually more balanced? Not sure what's intended.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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