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New Beta Version - November 25th (11/25)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Nov 25, 2019.

  1. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    Before I start on the fresh version just posted, I'll point out for @Recursive that I just had a glorious situation mid-game (Emperor) in which I was DoW by all 3 of my neighbours over the course of 2-3 turns. Ironically I was playing peaceful and hadn't committed any acts of aggression.

    I had a citrus monopoly with a couple tech lead over the 4 others on my continent, and was in the process of getting my units capped for impending war - initially with just England, I thought - so I wasn't necessarily vulnerable considering both my UU's were active (Celts using PDan's 3/4UC). However, if they all attacked me in the fashion they did on all three fronts (England had ships active as well with GLighthouse), I was definitely vulnerable; if not for adjusting to rush knights and buy 2, quickly getting them into the fray, I would've lost arguably my second best city containing multiple lapis deposits and my biggest source of horses.

    This was after initially being backstabbed by Lizzy (Authority) to my south, and denounced by Spain (Authority) to my east for wonder whoring (I can't even recall ever seeing that specific denouncement message screen after all my hours playing VP, so that was cool), while already having been at war to Arabia (Tradition) on my south-east border where I tile snatched El Dorado away from Harun earlier in the game. I had a DoF with all 3 members at points in time over the first 150 turns of the game. The shift in attitude was very dynamic and sensible for the situation; Lizzy and Harun also had differing religions (Spain didn't found, go figure lol). Great to see that from the AI, kudos!
     
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  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I am in early industrial in my current game and would like to get a bit further with it. Indonesia, continents, King.

    I'm having an absolute ball with my civ-city Indonesia. The continent I generated put me on a large peninsula on the edge of a very long, snaky continent with 5/8 players on it. I forward settled the mouth of the peninsula and then Austronesia'd all over a chain of northern islands and the top edge of the continent while Korea and Shoshone fought endlessly over the Rock of Gibraltar on their southern border. Spain got her own continent and China was left to make mincemeat of Denmark on their continent for a while. I think there's a total of 3 plantation resources in the whole map script (silk, cacao, citrus), and I have settled 12 cities, with my first horse resource of the game being on an uninhabited mini-continent, next to an unclaimed Grand Mesa. So there was this real sense of a Renaissance-era land grab, because there were 3 inaccessible, and highly valuable land-masses cut off by 1-2 tiles of deep ocean, but still accessible to a trireme. Very fun. Haven't seen the settling period of a game extend this far into the game before.

    I followed @LifeOfBrian's advice on how to found with goddess of festivals and son of a gun, it worked. I was paying 14g each for a civ's only copy of Coral at one point, but I founded 3rd overall, and the prices went down once other civs started connecting more of their stuff. That pantheon really is dependent on your ability to explore though. If I had been on a continent with only 3 civs, I don't think I would have made it.

    No real combat feel to report, since I just got into my first war of the entire game in early industrial with Spain. I think my closest city to anyone else is still 7 tiles away, so no border disputes, and the AIs have been content to focus on killing each other. I'm going to have to start going a bit more axe murderer on people though. I won the Treasure Fleet WC, and I just finished adopting all the early Imperialism tenets, so the only policies left are war bonuses.
     
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  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
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    8,327
    Finishing up what has been a fun game (though likely will be a loss). One strategic mistake I made this game was in focusing my sphere of influences in foreign areas, thinking that I could maintain control of the CS close to home. That was patently false:) And CSes are now very good combatants. I am paying the price for that.

    upload_2019-12-2_12-14-46.png

    So this has been another great example of late game warfare. Going into the late war, I've been the score leader for most of the game but little Polynesia with its 3 cities has been rocketing up the science track, and threatened SV. Ethiopia has also been no slouch, and has stayed science competitive with me. I have been dominate in the WC, but I did trade a sphere for a sanction during one session (I had order's transnationalism and iron curtain so I'm all about ITRs at this point anyway).

    I have been attempting a DV, but its been rough going. My first attempt at the United Nations was shot down by the entire world (though I have by far the most CS allies, Polynesia bagged the Palace of Westminster and has Freedom's 3rd tier votes, so he has competitive votes). So the game pushed into the distance, and I could no longer ignore Polynesia's science lead. Spain just wanted to beat on me and had no plans to push Polynesia it seemed, so I would have to do it myself. Unfortunately the only way to Polynesia was through the southern passage (see map above), and Ethiopia controls it. With no chance of an Open Borders (I have sanctions, but honestly Ethiopia hates my guts so I don't think I could secure it regardless). So I send a 5 carrier fleet with bombers down the pipe, and first declare on Ethiopia to allow for a push into Polynesia.

    Ultimately this is a massive strategic blunder. Ethiopia has a solid modern army, and there CS allies are very competitive. Spain joins the fray, and later on Polynesia joins in as well. My carrier force is doing alright but losing steam. However nearly all of my investment is in my air force, so my southern flank is weak against Ethiopia counter. Meanwhile, all of the CS (see above) are pushing at me in the north, and Spain's navy has my strangled in the east. Ironically I manage to grab CERN and get tech parity with Polynesia (suggesting that if I had sat back I probably could have utilized my massive production advantage over Polynesia to secure a SV). But now the noose is being tightened, I've lost a few CS allies and now they are pushing in to my core cities. My military is depleted, and I think the end is nigh.

    So I got to test drive a lot of the new changes, so here are my notes:

    1) Tank Changes: Ultimately this seems pretty good. Tanks felt strong but I never felt they were overpowered. Modern Armor actually got some action in this game, and they actually seemed worth building.

    2) Helicopters: So right now because helicopters lose skirmisher doctrine....its actually a downgrade compared to a light tank (LT) in open terrain....actually a large one. There is lots of open space at this point in the game, so I've had little trouble keeping LTs in the open, and they actually do alright against information era forces. So I never wanted to upgrade to helicopters. If skirmisher doctrine stays, and helicopters don't get it...they need a massive buff to CS/RCS to stay competitive (for context my LTs have effectively 78 CS/RCS, the helicopter would need though numbers at absolute minimum...and probably even more than that). I will also say helicopters should get more speed, 4 speed doesn't make sense for them both flavorwise, and mechanically against the kinds of units they now face. I think speed 6 was honestly fine for them, as range 3 is very common at this point.

    3) Stealth Bombers on Carriers: I have gone from "probably should be allowed to "definitely should be allowed". Heavy bombers are not competitive against information armies...I do like 6 damage to a mech infantry and almost no damage to a city. I find that my greatest use of carriers is the late game to try and stop a science lead (as noted above), but heavy bomber carriers can't do the job.

    4) Anti-Sub Bonuses: I think the destroyer and missile cruiser anti-sub bonuses can be relaxed a bit (drop to like +15% and +50%). Subs exist for one purpose...to blow up enemy ships. I put wolfpack III on them, and off they go. But because of the anti-sub bonuses they don't do all that much damage to destroyers/missile cruisers.....and this is the bulk of the late game forces I generally encounter. Since subs are such a niche unit, they should be highly competitive at that niche....I think they do fine against other ships, its just the destroyer/missile cruisers that need adjustment.

    5) AI CS bonus: So recently the AI's bonus for CS units was reduced (or maybe even removed). In general I have noticed a difference, but not really enough to change the conclusion. Instead of AIs getting a 4000 influence advantage, they get a 2000 one...but its still a wall I am not going to climb. I still find the only way to realistically hold on to CS allies past the mid game are Spheres....its simply too much effort otherwise.

    6) Diplomacy: So in general diplomacy felt good in the game. I didn't notice any crazy or odd behavior with the recent changes.

    Tech Trading: For the first time in like 10 games, the AI was willing to trade a tech with me. Now it was a king's ransom (they wanted an equal tech and 3 luxs and like 60 gold/turn)...but they at least entertained the offer! But that was one time, the entire rest of the game it was never allowed. Honestly what I use tech trading for, is keeping my vassals competitive. I never get very much from them, but at least my vassal can hold its own.

    Vote Trading: I get that vote trading can be a little abusive....but its the whole point of having diplomats! I cannot remember the last time I was allowed to buy a single vote from a Civ, its always impossible.

    Open Borders: I have seen several times where the AI will give me open borders, but if I offer it to them they say impossible. Its been mentioned that the AI does not factor in archeologists in this decision making...and I have no tourism presence whatsoever....so I don't know why the AI would be against me allowing their units into my territory.

    7) World Congress: This one is a question....I was under the impression that once all civs got to the end game that the World Congress grants 2 votes per CS ally. But I am literally about to finish the game and its still 1 vote per ally. Do you actually have to get the united nations resolution for that to happen....I had thought it was automatic.

    8) Late game City Air Defense: This one is a repeat of a previous complaint....air defense for cities is just too high. I think the target should be the Airport. The airport is already a terrific building, a nerf there would not be a problem. This allows military bases to be the strong surge of air defense late game, as is appropriate...but then cities aren't so crazy damaging to air forces.

    9) Diplomatic Victory: I do think if you win the hegemony vote (but don't get the maximum), you should get 2 votes instead of just 1. I mean it means you have +20 turns before you can win a DV...that is an eternity at that point in the game. At least +2 more votes gives you a reasonable chance to win if you just couldn't manage it the first time.

    UPDATE: Holy Crap I won!!!! (Turn 444 - SV). Ethiopia gave up right with his forces at my vassals gates (one more round of attacks would have done it). It was so miraculous I actually reported it as an AI judgment bug:)

    With Ethiopia stopped, I was able to send my planes back to my cities, and started to hold my own. I lost a city (but fortunately wasn't a critical one)...but it was to a CS so that's a little embarrassing! But I held the tide, and bought a ton of workers to quickly repair the damage. I then remade my trade routes and funneled the raw power of the Iron Curtain ITRs into my 2 best production cities. Spain got one global hegemony vote 1 turn before my last part, but thankfully was 4 votes away. Victory for me!
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  4. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

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    Yep.
     
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  5. danymatrix

    danymatrix Chieftain

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    hi. Excelent work men!

     
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  6. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Well said, I very much agree! :)

    What was your diplomatic situation like? I haven't had too much trouble buying votes. You'll never be able to buy them from someone who hates you though.
     
  7. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Ive done something Ive done a very long time ago, playing right from the start a warmonger game.
    In most cases I play peacefully and do a lot to stay at this state of the game, wars happens in the late game, when I have already the advantage and be able to overwhelm my enemies with artillery and bombers.
    But I tried now a game as Aztecs on a standard oval map with standard speed and emperor setting.
    I havnt finished the game cause its too obvious a win. Iam in turn 200, beeing ahead by around 8-10 techs and close to enter industrial age. Ive conquered one civ completly and vasselized 4. 3 more civs are remaining, but none is a match cause everyone is fielding one or even two tier lower units vs me and some units die already by one attack of my units. I had never thought that the yields from conquering cities from the authority tree are so gigantic. In the early stage, they were worth 10+ turns of my normal output and pushed me far ahead in tech and culture. Made a mistake and tooked order cause I thought faith for killing would be nice but should have picked instead the hammer belief, cause the fast tech progress couldnt be handled by my cities, even not by the core cities. Of course, the extra experience is useful, but not necessary.
    Even with the fact I couldnt hold my cities up to date, I had never any unhappiness problems. 5 cities were founded by me and one good city annexed from Denmark, everything else puppeted (15-20). In the last part of the game Ive annexed a good city near the front to be able to send fresh units and missionaries/inquisitors faster to their point of action but thats it.
    I have to say, they tried it to stop me with a 4 man war declaration at a time span of 4 turns, but fielding swordsman and even berserkers vs tercios is far too late to do something impressiv. They were still too passiv to set me under pressure.

    I still think, happiness is too easy to handle and warmongers still have a too great advantage over other strategies. I could never had have created such an advantage with any other strategy.
     
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