1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

New Beta Version - October 23rd (10-23)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 King

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2018
    Messages:
    900
    Gender:
    Male
    With Ranged Cavalry, I don't mind seeing rough terrain move penalty removed and them getting double movements in enemy territory like siege units. It's obvious that we struggle to simulate how they are in real life so let's make them great for defensive measures where they excel at picking apart enemy attackers while letting offense be the focus of other units.
     
  2. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,441
  3. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2017
    Messages:
    735
    Is it intended that Diplomats (spies in enemy capital in the role of Diplomats) can level up twice (from Recruit to Special Agent) in one turn or should I report this? Happened to me twice so far in one game so it's not super common but one time I'm not even sure the guy did anything like uncover intrigue...
     
  4. RyesDaile

    RyesDaile Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2010
    Messages:
    8
    Had a chance to get through two games this version, a game or half in a few of the versions previous. I play on immortal with a standard setup. A few things I've noticed ever since the food change is that late game really slows down, and adds maybe 50-100 turns to my games. I am enjoying that, except it means I end up playing fewer games...!, especially with those late game turn times. There are two things I've noticed in most of my recent games and would love to know if its just me and RNG or others experiences: forced playstyle and late game GPT.

    First, on playstyle, the majority of AIs (i.e. 4-6) in my recent games are choosing Statecraft/Rationalism which usually forces me into a specific playstyle each game: if Statecraft, abandon CS ambitions due to crazy amount of competition with 5-6 AI CIVs and go Rationalism/prioritize Science in most/all cities. I've tried other playstyles, but they feel suboptimal, and I usually fall behind noticeably in terms of tech, which still seems to be the most important metric.

    Second, late game gold per turn. Around Modern/Atomic I notice that GPT drops off dramatically with the scaling cost of building/unit maintenance. GPT usually slows to low double digits (i.e. +20 GPT or negative). I see it happen with a number of AIs as well. I first noticed it going Domination and thought it was due number of units, but noticed in peaceful games with fewer cities. There usually seems to be one or two outlier AIs who can crank out +200-300 GPT. This usually forces me to avoid constructing some buildings, forcing all trade routes external to highest GPT, and turning the production of some cities to gold per turn, just to make it through those last 20-30 turns before Victory and the mass AI DOWs.

    So, is it just me or have others noticed this as well? Or maybe this is by design, especially on higher difficulty levels?

    .
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. cerk

    cerk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2019
    Messages:
    62
    It is a temporary problem in the industrial era but I sometimes run around 50 turns with negative gold, losing up to some 50GPT. The instant yields and one city working on wealth (if I absolutely need positive income) is usually enough until modern. I was getting some 500GPT in my last game with trader's sid and golden age in early atomic.

    Once you hit stock exchanges, that is some 12 gold in every city. Also you have a lot of golden ages towards the endgame, World's fair, Apollo program, Universal suffrage and you should be having one or more golden age modifiers through monopolies if you are going domination.
     
  6. RyesDaile

    RyesDaile Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2010
    Messages:
    8
    I was able to get Trader’s Sid in one game, which was a nice GPT bridge, but that feels very situational depending on tech lvl/resources. It also feels somewhat forced, if available, along with going stock exchange tech first given GPT issues. I will say, that In my last game I severely underestimated the power of NOT settling on a river, the GPT from the Wind Farm is amazing, but comes late in actual turns, unless you beeline.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  7. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2017
    Messages:
    735
    On Github there is a discussion about whether GGs and GAs should (still) boost city defense (they currently don't, but used to for a long time). This was never properly discussed here and I think people just assumed that it was a bug when this feature was removed in the 10/23 beta (or maybe one before that).

    Personally I always liked this feature and would like it reintroduced, as it allows managing defensive hotspots more easily and significantly increases the value of GGs and GAs, especially when playing a more peaceful, defensive game, where they would now mostly just sit around and eat maintenance without doing anything. It used to be, when distress was still coupled to city defense, that they even helped with Unhappiness but that is gone as well, obviously. The defense boost was never so great that I considered it to be absolutely vital but it certainly helped, especially since the human often has a number-of-units disadvantage against the AI and so the GG/GA helped keep the garrison alive longer against the onslaught of AI unit carpets.

    From what I understand, @ilteroi thinks that it may be AI unfriendly and I concede that the human makes better use of GGs/GAs than the AI, as is the case with all other units as well, but it's not like the AI never puts their general in the city (in fact, I see this quite often). The biggest issue with AI and Great People in general, from my experience, is that they don't always bother to guard them; as I know that there is already code that does this for AI Settlers, maybe something similar could be used for Great People, as well: basically they should always end their "turn" on a tile where one of their own units is.

    So ultimately I would like this feature to be reintroduced; if need be, the AI can get a bonus to how quickly it gets a GG/GA or that bonus increased if they already get something like that.

    What does the Vox of the People say to that? :D
     
    vyyt likes this.
  8. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,312
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    lol. So the Terracotta army still give you a copy of all units. :lol:
    I think GGs and GAs shouldn't boost city defense. The unit garrison mechanics are much better now and it's not necessary
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,494
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    That's what happens when the master branch gets broken on github and I have to merge by hand :crazyeye:
     
    JamesNinelives likes this.
  10. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2018
    Messages:
    293
    Gender:
    Male
    I liked GG buffing city defense (just by a little bit) to symbolise improved coordination.
    It was most useful in the early game or after conquering a city. Dan does have a point in that after garrison changes it seems less needed.

    Perhaps the ideal way (for both player and AI) would be that the city gets the bonus if in the radius of a GG/GA, but I suspect that it's new code, or even imposible.
     
  11. AndreyK

    AndreyK Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2017
    Messages:
    50
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Yakutsk, Russia
    I have a question regarding War Weariness, don't know where to put it correctly. Playing huge communitas map, epic speed, as Japan, had a prolonged war with Brasil, conquered them completely. My WW in happiness screen 136, in units 61 (shows 75 reduction since somewhat about 85-90 units) by the end of war. In 2 turns after the war my WW changes by 1 per turn in happiness screen to 134, in units by 1 to 62, China DoW on me and nothing changes. I have 89 units, so my food production very low (negative in some cities). I thought that after the war WW should drop quicker, especially as I get DoW from another civ
     
  12. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2018
    Messages:
    293
    Gender:
    Male
    I asked recently something similar. Apparently it's intended that when you kill a civ, WW goes down more slowly... Better to vassalize them, from this perspective (but then you don't get their embassies, among other perks).
     
  13. AndreyK

    AndreyK Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2017
    Messages:
    50
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Yakutsk, Russia
    So it seems I have to wait 136 turns to have unhappiness from WW be cleared, it's been 5 turns and now WW is 131. Looks too long
     
  14. AndreyK

    AndreyK Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2017
    Messages:
    50
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Yakutsk, Russia
    Kind of not very consistent, 40 turns ago finished Ethiopia, but they had only 1 city left (they had DP between Brasil & Ethiopia and that was second war with Ethiopia) had no WW at all.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    5,441
    Standard Immortal Fractal with Morocco. SV by ~435 (I'm on Turn 423 but I am now in a clear runaway position so I'm calling it).

    This was a fun interesting game. Early on I played peaceful progress but with Austria's capital in a vulnerable position I just had to take it. I went springtime this game as I went a Petra rush, and of course didn't found, so I picked up Austria's holy city and several wonders. This put me in second place score wise. What was also weird was that between Austria and Greece, I had the third most votes all game, and because I wasn't host I never got to propose a vote....the entire game! One time I even tried to make Greece the host, just so I could have the 3rd pick. But he chose Sweden!!!! So once again no picks for me. And they used the WC to their advantage, imposing sanctions of me, banning some of the luxuries, and just generally being a royal pain to me.

    To my north was China, and the my further north Arabia. I thought I was in a pretty comfortable spot...but Arabia started taking off like a shot!!! Tech, tech, tech, policy, policy, policy....I hadn't seen such a runaway in a long while! Further, my early spies got killed so I wasn't catching up that way. I knew that if I did not act very quickly that he would just steamroll his way to the top, and gain a tech advantage I could not match. So the only recourse....was war!!!

    But China was in the way...so first things first. Long story short I had a pretty solid war with china (chu-ko-nus turn into musketmen and just wreck shop), but I was also to carve a path straight north to Arabia's territory. First stop was Bagdad (see picture). I secured the eastern front with my navy and the CS, and used amphiphious landings to shore it up. Then pushed from the south.

    upload_2019-11-11_13-59-4.png

    This was not an elegant war, it was an absolute slaughterhouse. I had gone Industry vs Arabia's rationalism. I had many more cities than he did, and my income was 4 times higher than him. So I decided to literally outspend him. I threw unit after unit into the meat grinder. Paratroopers took out every road he had, but he had a solid bomber supply (and at first I had 0 anti-air), so he chewed me down. He had a +49% antiwarmonger bonus, and a significant tech advantage. My units melted before his might. I would lose 2, 3, even 4 units a turn....but I knew I could not stop. This was the war that would decide the world....either I stopped him now....or he would take the game with either CV or SV.

    And for a time it was not going well. I was making ground, but that damn AI production bonus just letting him refortify, and my extra supply of units started to twindle. War Weariness kicked in...and my supply started to drop. But I knew his was as well, and I felt that it would hurt him more than me. I pressed on!

    And started to die....I just wasn't able to hold it. At least, not by myself...for in the nick of time China declared on Arabia!!!! His units were worse than mine, but it took just enough heat off of me to let me establish my siege hold on Bagdad, and enough turns to wear it down. Bagdad falls! On to the capital....it didn't matter what else Arabia had, I knew if I took his capital he was dead....and with it would come the bounty of many many wonders and a tradition capital. I sued for peace to reset my line, and now had Autocracy's power against freedom. I gained the +25% attack bonus for 50 turns....as I knew this would be the war to end all wars. And back into the meat grinder I went. I used whatever airpower I could muster from Bagdad, and even switch to guided missiles to give me the range I needed (which btw if there is no garrison in a city, a guided missile will 1 shot a bomber....not a great hammer trade but exactly the trade I was making this war!)

    I don't want to say how many lives were lost, how many units were killed. The tactical geniuses in our forum would sneer at the clumsy way I hammered my way to victory. But when time is not on your side you don't have time for finesse....and I brought the hammer down to Arabia. The capital fell...and my victory gained!!!

    I will say that Greece and Japan had not been slouching, and there was a short time when I thought I would actually have to deal with them. But once my industrial might no longer cared about war and switched to research...I took off like a shot. I blew past them in techs, and went on to SV. Victory!


    Definitely a fun game overall, and I saw a few key points worth mentioning.

    1) Industry: I mentioned this in the policy forum, but even though I was able to make my spending work in this example, I still think Imperalism would have been better overall. I would have gotten a major unit production bonus (which I needed), and even better troops. I think Industry's bonuses come later than rationalism and imperalism, and its at a time when runaways start to occur. I think Industry's recent buffs were good, but come a little too late, and they still don't bring that much distinctiveness to the table. Late game when I build a building I get 70 science and culture....um....woo hoo?

    2) Guided Missiles: I will say I put them to use this game, but they still feel too expensive for what they are. I do like the garrison targeting ability, but my god they are so expensive for a single use.

    3) Carrier Wars: So as a final treat in this game, I got to see a full scale late game naval war. Both Greece and I came at each other with destroyers (ok mine were missile cruisers) and several carriers with aircraft. I actually had stealth bombers as well (I think there is a bug, because normally you can't put stealth bombers of carriers but I found a workaround with upgrades to allow it).

    So what I found was this....the carriers were immediately murdered. They didn't stand a chance, even if my aircraft gets intercepted its not going to die in one hit, so I used even my regular bombers to nail the carriers and take them out. So initiative was everything in this fight. However....destroyers are surprising durable on air defense. Regardless of interception, my stealth bombers were still taking 30 damage a hit, and so in short order my bombers were on fumes, and his much larger navy started to press on mine. Ultimately I had to do some retreating and attacking while my ships healed in the carriers, I eventually won but it was not as one-sided as I had expected considering the stealth bombers. Destroyers are better than I expected!

    4) Cities have too much air defense in the late game to me. I never bother bombing them, as my aircraft just get worn down after a few runs. I use them for units only and attack cities with other units.

    5) I think the +2 hammer per factory mechanic is working now. At +1 it wasn't great, but at +2 I do notice the difference, and I now enjoy building factors. However, it takes a lot of coal, and with refiners weaker on coal now I did have to be picky about where I build my train stations/seaports.

    6) I do think Goddess of Springtime needs a boost...it is very niche and very late to come out. Even a +4 faith for markets would be something to give it a chance to found. I will say it is a large amount of extra gold which is nice, but it requires a laser focused build order to make any use of it....and even then its nothing earth shattering.
     
  16. civplayer33

    civplayer33 King

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2017
    Messages:
    735
    This is still for the 10/23 version, so maybe it has changed, but I have some questions (perhaps for @HeathcliffWarriors ?) about diplo modifiers:
    1. the "we are trade partners" modifier can be increased by making trade deals; so far, so good. It increases for regular (balanced) trade deals as well as for favorable (unbalanced, where the value is positive for the AI) deals, but I have not noticed it increasing disproportionately for the latter kind of deal. Is this the same modifier that mediates giving gifts to the AI and should it be increasing when making only balanced trade deals?
    2. I'm sure there used to be a "you forgave them for spying" positive modifier in the past; I've forgiven two civs for spying now (one of them twice) but I don't get that modifier...should I report it or could it be intentional for some reason; if so, what's the reason?
     
  17. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    539
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    1 - it depends on the trade value to the AI, in the same way as the vanilla "We've traded recently" modifier. Deals listed as "Acceptable" might give a small bonus as it's considered close enough to a perfectly balanced deal. Trade routes with them also give a diplo bonus.

    2 - think that's a bug.
     
    civplayer33 likes this.
  18. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    539
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    Fixed this.
     
  19. Daimyo21

    Daimyo21 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4
    Does anyone know what the cause of production decreasing when building melee units?
     
  20. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2017
    Messages:
    500
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Pyongyang
    If you have more local unhappiness than happiness in any given city, you get a negative modifier that increases hammer and gold cost of military units.
     
    Daimyo21 and vyyt like this.

Share This Page