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New Beta Version - October 23rd (10-23)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Ok, something is wrong with that AI warmongers.
    I get senseless war declarations from across the map, askia tried to conquer my capital with a single warrior and 2 catapults vs composite bowmans and horseman....
     
  2. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Other than nuclear plants, I still don't see the need for anything more than just one single, uncomplicated building called "Power Plant" that just takes all the good parts of the current options. For example, aqueducts are very closely tied with geography (you need hills or mountains to get the water to flow down to the city) but there is no need for an "island aqueduct" or a "plains aqueduct". Also, Windmills are earlier than power plants yet no one is concerned about Windmills in jungle cities.

    In fact, power plants should just be windmills 2.0:
    +15% production towards everything instead of just buildings
    +33% to processes
    -some unhappiness
     
    Maxxim69, vyyt, 4CV and 3 others like this.
  3. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    It's a joke, bruh. Take it easy.

    G
     
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    It seems to me that you want to plan your cities into two groups.

    The first build an agribusiness, and would stop working mines and things to go pure farms and specialists. This thing is potentially worth far more production and gold than factories or stock exchanges. This is really good for tradition who can make and really use these massive cities well.

    The second group just skips building the agribusiness and works the plantations lumber mills and mines instead. You can probably switch tiles between cities to optimize this.

    I don't think +15% efficiency towards the food process is even worth the text, that process is not useful at this point of the game.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    I don't want to get pedantic, but modmods were most certainly part of the discussion:

    Anyways, I'm not always going to make everyone happy. That's fine. We do what we have to.

    G
     
  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Re: 15%, it does boost distress control too, which is fairly handy. It's more of a proof of concept.

    G
     
  7. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    At this point I think we need to just playtest. I'm not 100% on the changes myself, but I don't expect things to stay this way forever (if nothing else Gazebo has always been willing to make changes between betas based on feedback) and Agribusiness doesn't come into play until late-game anyway so I'm looking forward to seeing how the other changes affect gameplay.

    Dan I feel for you though and I think you deserve an apology. Things that are intended as jokes can still be rude or insulting regardless of how they were intended. I value you all as a part of this community and I think it's important to respect the work that people put into what they do (and of course that goes both ways, thanks G for all the work you do as well). Moreover, I hope that you are all well IRL, I know that sometimes external stress factors can make other things more difficult.
     
    Maxxim69 likes this.
  8. General_Drax

    General_Drax Chieftain

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    JamesNinelives likes this.
  9. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Could live with that, but I really like the idea of buffing tiles to make simple citizens more competitive. Generic percentual increases buffs also the passiv yields, making it a null sum for citizens.

    What would be, if we make a generic power plant, that can be build by everyone? The solar power plant and the nuclear plant could be stronger versions of the normal power plant, which exclude each other.

    Power plant (solar/nuclear)
    +15% production (+25%)
    +1 science/gold for each worked tile (+1 science / +2 gold)
    1 specialist is unhappiness free (2)

    Additionally, wind and hydro plant can be build, which also excludes each other but aren't hit by river connection restriction.
    Wind Plant (aluminium necessary)
    +5% production/gold
    +1 hammer/gold for each worked tile
    1 specialist is unhappiness free

    Hydro plant (iron needed)
    +5% production/gold
    +1 food/production/2 gold for each worked river tile
    1 specialist is unhappiness free

    Those buildings would push you further in economic strength, but to the cost odlf strategic resources. The yield increase for tiles makes also citizens more competitive vs all the other yield incomes. Numbers are of course discussable, but I think you get the point.
     
    saamohod likes this.
  10. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    For comparison, this is what one of my cities on the previous patch looked like (working farms with Agribusiness) towards the end of the game. I was quite happy that I had the max number of UIs and villages and was still able to get some farms with nice yields. Wheat and rivers certainly helped. The wheat tile with the star on it is producing 11 food, 1 hammer.

    For the other tiles, note that this is during a golden age, with Rationalism which increases science on strategic resources (i.e. horses) and jungle tiles, and using Community Events which buffs the UI slightly (+1 faith +1 GAP). No other changes (this is without Fealty or the Urbanisation policy from Freedom for example).

    Spoiler Old farms being worked :
    20191025173621_1.jpg
     
  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    @JamesNinelives

    I really think you should use more specialists. Those farms and coastal tiles are alright, not great, and a 37 pop city should contribute more science and culture than this one does.
     
  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    I'm pretty happy with how it performs at the moment. It would never have got that big if I had been working specialists the whole time, and I get yields per pop from my buildings as well as yields on growth (from the Progress finisher, various buildings, and my religious tenets). It's still growing too, which means that every new citizen becomes a specialist.
     
    Hinin likes this.
  13. azum4roll

    azum4roll Prince

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    I really like growing my cities even towards the end, but not to this extreme. I would not work the coastal tiles, for instance.

    I'll take a screenshot when I have time.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    If you are having fun, by all means have fun. I don't mean to hurt your enjoyment of the game.

    But if you mean to discuss balance (which is how I read your post, sorry if that wasn't your intention), I still must disagree. Even with all new citizens becoming specialists, this is a poor choice. The point of the game isn't to get food, it is to get other yields, such as science and culture. Food is just a middleman. I think what is really important about the new agribusiness is that farms provide 3 hammers and 3 gold, which really increases the rewards for a high pop city. The relative lack of rewards for growth in VP (and huge rewards in vanilla) are what determine the strength of growth strategies.
     
  15. 4CV

    4CV Warlord

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    I play SIAM atm with this version. Influence with CityStates starts with 40 and they are friend from the beginning, as it should be. A military CS friend gives 1 science, as announced.
    But I don't get food in my capital and second city from maritime CS, as said in mouseover. Has that been removed lately?
     
  16. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Prince

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    Food from maritime CS is added to the city center tile.
     
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  17. 4CV

    4CV Warlord

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    Thank you, I didn't know that... No good news anyway, because we'll starve very soon, if our scout can't find new friends :cry:
     
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  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    farms get 1:c5food: from the fertilizer tech and potential 3:c5production:3:c5gold: from agribusiness. Imperialism’s 2:c5food:1:c5production: farm boost is dependent on your :c5culture:culture output, of course, but can come around the same time very easily, being the 3rd policy in the tree. That can mean each farm can gain 7-10 yields in the space of a few turns.

    Unique tile improvements are not, strictly speaking, straightforward boosts to a replaced building, like UBs or UNWs are. They need to be better than possible tile improvements that might go on that tile instead. If a 10 yield steroid is going to be given to a base improvement in industrial, then UIs that compete for that flat tile space, need to keep up or a player has an incentive to remove/replace their civ’s unique component with better tiles, either by replacing them with farms directly, or placing GP tiles on the valid tiles instead for UIs, in order to make room for farm triangles, and to preserve the pasture resources.

    perhaps Hotels and airports could give all UIs a relevant steroid, like +2 to that UI’s main yields?
    For example, hotels could give:
    Terrace farm: 2:c5food:2:c5production:
    Moai: 2:c5production:2:c5culture:
    Eki: 2:c5food:2:c5culture:
    Or some other bonus to keep UIs in that space where they are stronger than base tile improvements, but weaker than GPTIs. This contributes to yet more yield bloat, but if the agribusiness is going to give 6 yields to a common improvement, then UIs need something so they don’t become dead weight.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I'll note that this scenario is not necessarily a bad one. For example there are UUs in the game whose traits pass on, and UUs that don't. Both have uses. So the idea of a UI that is replaced towards the end game is not necessarily a bad thing, granted its clearly weaker than a UI that never needs to be replaced, but there is still the possibility of balance with this kind of agribusiness bump.
     
  20. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    I posted that screenshot exclusively as an example for what working farms looks like in the late-game, not because I wanted criticism on my choices in-game. Someone else decided to bring up that subject.

    I'm happy to try to explain why I chose to manage my cities the way I do though, because people asked about. What I get annoyed at is when people come at me with a didactic approach, as if they are inherently right and I just haven't seen the light yet. If you think you can improve on my method that's fine, but don't start by assuming you have all information - take time to understand the context first.

    Of course growth is not an end in itself. The role of growth over time is that it allows a city to increase it's output. That's why I do it - it's an investment for a later day. Should I be leveraging that at this point in the game? Maybe, but I'm so far ahead of the rest of the world at that point in time that I've effectively already won - so it hardly matters.

    Here are some things that I think are sometimes overlooked though - the system as a whole isn't focused around growth (and neither should it be) but certain choices do incentivise it. For example beliefs like Goddess of Love and Co-operation, the Progress finisher, the Freedom tenet (I think it's called Universal Healthcare), and the yields provided by various buildings. There are other by-products of this, like happiness which leads to GAP and golden ages. Sure, this still doesn't make growth something to aim for in it's own right - and that was never my aim. I simply try to balance things that reduce the natural growth rate (like specialists) with the benefits that they offer.

    For example, I specialise which cities work which specialists. I have other cities popping out great engineers, great merchants, and great scientists and by this point in the game almost every tile of my capital city is a great person improvement - and several of my non-capital cities have them too. I have another one coming along (I forget which) in 12 turns on some island somewhere. This city doesn't represent what all my cities look like. It's also not contant over time. When I want to pump out something quickly, I switch my engineers on. Boom - extra production. Maybe I've made too many trade deals, then I can switch my merchants on - and it evens out my income. In a sense I have those in reserve for when I need them and in the meantime the city stays happy and just keeps getting bigger.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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