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New Beta Version - October 23rd (10-23)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The national wonders source?

    G
     
  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    It won't cause an error, but it also won't have an effect unless you have a process that converts Production into YIELD_FAITH

    Edit: this is the key table:

    Process_ProductionYields

    G
     
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  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Yes that is what started the discussion. That happiness almost always ends up in the capital which doesn't need it. Maybe I wasn't clear, I just meant that sources of :c5happy: (the resource) be global, rather than have some local and some global (which generally aren't clearly distinguished). Not a rework of the whole system.
     
  4. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Unfortunately, no, the system is a little too tightly wound to shift sources around so easily. If this is truly a problem tradition may simply need a different type of happiness.

    G
     
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  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    This is more of an observation than anything, but I found it very telling. So one of the shifts in going to Immortal Difficulty is the increase in the Anti-Warmonger penalty. Aka if you have done any kind of attacking (basically take 1 city is the easiest example), you get a large penalty to your combat offense and defense.

    I didn't expect that the increase between Emperor and Immortal would mean that much but what I'm finding is that I have to play Immortal even more cautiously than Emperor, and not just because of the number of units but because my units cannot hold lines as easily as they could in Emperor. Previously, certain spots that I could dig in and hold ground on are no longer viable because the extra penalty is enough for the AI to get kills on me that they were not getting before.

    Again, no real conclusions here, more just the note on how small bonuses (or penalties) can make a big difference in certain areas.
     
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  6. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    That's sad, cause it would have been the smoothest and easiest way to solve the problem.

    Other option, the percentual bonuses are always linked with the capital, no matter where you build the national wonder, if possible. This would free the capital to build real wonders and enables Secondary cities to leech happiness from those buildings.

    Another option, Tradition didn't get positive happiness, but instead get unhappiness reduction for each type in the first 5 cities, split on every tradition policy?

    Just some thoughts.
     
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  7. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    So I'm playing a game on this patch at the moment and something strange has happened. None of the AIs seem to have great works available for trade - of any kind.

    I know they have great works because their score includes a number for them. But the great work trade screen is bizarrely empty. Normally there are at least three or four works of art and writing by this point in the game.

    Spoiler Not willing to trade, or not able? :
    20191028200504_1.jpg

    Spoiler Got them masterpieces :
    20191028200520_1.jpg

    Otherwise though the game has been great. The Maya have had a tech lead on me for some time, but I managed to get the wonders I wanted including Himeji Castle which I often miss out on. War against the Aztecs (who were actually ahead of me in tech until recently) was fun and challenging. I was lucky enough to gain control of city-states gifting me both the Cataphract (one of my favourite UUs) and the Naga-Malla. And the Huns of all people have been soild allies to me all game lol.

    Something I noticed is that Authority civs seem to be doing better at claiming wonders lately. I had Authority Germany building the Pyramids in my previous game on this patch, and in this game it went to Authority Aztecs. I don't have strong feelings either way about that, but it wasn't something I had expected. Maybe it's just that the AI is going for wonders more aggresively than they used to, which is good.

    I want to keep playing this save, but I also want to find out if the great work trading things in a one-off or if I encounter the same issues in other games. This is the only one I've played this far through so far.

    Spoiler German Pyramids :
    20191027183752_1.jpg

    Finally, I do have to wonder why flood plains are harder for mounted units to move through than for foot units. Perhaps it makes sense for chariots because of their wheels, but skirmishers and heavy skirmishers should really not an issue with flood plains. It's not a huge deal (as it's still only 2 movement rather than 3 as forest, hills and jungle do), but it is noticeable.

    Spoiler Clip clop :
    upload_2019-10-28_21-26-14.jpeg

    Edit: one last note - the Aztecs just declared war on me again which is fine because it saves me the trouble of doing it myself. However, I really would like to let the rest of the world know they are untrustworthy... it would be really great if we could denounce civs while at war with them :). My denouncement 'ran out' on the same turn that they declared war on just after promising not to!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
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  8. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Not a bug. The AI was trading away works if needed in prior versions so I fixed it so they trade less often.
     
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  9. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    OK. Thanks for letting me know. I'm just finding that there are literally no trades available so far, which makes getting the ones I want difficult. I'll keep playing and see if things ease up. For the record I'm not just interested in maximising my yields, I just love art and I have favourites that I like to collect.

    Also of note, the AI seem to be using their spies in city-states more which makes the competition a little more fierce. I haven't played enough games yet to know though, just an impression.

    Update: I played for a while longer and I did manage to trade one of my great works! Seeing as the AI doesn't seem to want to advertise which works are up for trade I put up the ones I wanted to trade and just waited. After a while I got something! Venice traded me one of their works of writing (and happily one of the ones I wanted too).

    Still seems pretty sparse as trading goes, but what I'm going to try a new game with the changes in mind and advertise the works I want to trade as soon as possible. Hopefully I'll be able to get a bit more action going in the great works trading system that way.

    Here's a pic of my civ where I left off. I'm quite proud of having acquired muliple unique units through befriending city-states. I think this is the most different types I've had at one time before :).

    Spoiler Strength through diversity :
    20191029034045_1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  10. Lee Saxon

    Lee Saxon Chieftain

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    Thanks for this :crazyeye:
     
  11. Lee Saxon

    Lee Saxon Chieftain

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    Glad to hear I'm not the only one playing this way. This is me with Wonders.
     
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  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Standard Immortal Fractal with Arabia. CV on Turn 315, my 3rd Immortal Win!

    So this one was interesting, in that I tried about 8 times to win as Arabia with CV...and got curb stomped every single time. Like hilariously bad. And yet this game I was so incredibly far ahead I never felt challenged past the early game. So what was so different?

    I had a good start (and went 5 cities like I normally do with CV), and I think that let me bag a wonder or two more than I was getting before, but if I were to pick something, I think it was the CS advantage. I managed through quests and the new spies to bag 3 CS allies early in the game and hold them. The boost was key. And because I had this early boost....my unhappiness was non-existent. I was able to grow all of my cities all game long without a lick of unhappiness. I had at one point 117 happiness...and 4 unhappiness in my entire civ. The difference was incredibly stark (stark enough that its got me worried actually), and ultimately it let me snowball to victory.

    Not too many notes from this game, but a couple:

    1) I'm really enjoying the new spies. For a science heavy civ like Arabia who doesn't need the tech steal as much, its a fun alternative for Spies. That said...as much as I hate to say it...I do think the new mechanic is overtuned. I think I was getting 170 influence with an early election rig...which is probably a bit too much.

    2) I still think Skirmishers are pretty worthless overall. I've tried them on offense, and this time on solid defense. And for me, c bows are just better in 90% of cases...and cheaper.

    3) Something I have never done before, even on lower difficulties. I basically converted the entire map with Borodur + Universalism. I just steamrolled the map with a never ending supply of super missionaries. The only hold out was Spain...because...Spain. 660 followers in other cities (+66 gold/+66 faith). Not too shabby, though I don't think universalism yields are that great, its clearly about the missionary power. I did it to get shared religion for votes and tourism spread.

    4) Based on people's feedback about Divine Inheritance vs Theocratic Rule I've been trying DI more. And yes its good....but I can get WLTKD way more frequently than golden ages. People have noted that sometimes WLTKD can be hard to get, and that's true during certain points in the game, but even with that I still had 3x as many WLTKD turns for my capital as I did GA...so to me its still hard to justify DI.

    5) I immediately like the new Coal Refinery....because it gives me less. This game I was low on coal, and I used the refineries to augment. In the older version I could have bagged 15 coal with refineries, more than I would ever use....now I only get 5...its a good amount but not a comfortable one, which to me is the right approach. If you want a large amount of resources you need to go get them, not just sit back and magically have them imo.
     
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  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Did you take artistry? You can easily spend more than 1/2 the game (after religions are founded) in golden ages, so your WLTKD shouldn't be that much more common.
     
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  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Is the boost from 4:c5food: to 6:c5food: for :c5food:ITRs on the Jelling stone really necessary? With the +25%:c5production: to melee units, the +2:c5food: to sea tiles, and instant boost on pillage, The jelling stones were already an amazing building before this change. Giving them an additional 2:c5food: to ITRs doesn't seem necessary.

    Also, I'm guessing the interaction between Carthage's free lighthouse meaning they get +4:c5food: at Trade has already been noted. It's only 1 tech sooner, but worth noting that Carthage gets boosted ITRs faster than in previous patches, while the boost was pushed back for everyone else.
     
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  15. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Its not like I've seen this coming cause its simply too obviously. Most simple way against the ultra high CS influences would be simply to reduce the influence gains by missions and diplomats. Instead we have now the next mechanic to rise CS influence to absurd height.
    I simply didn't understand the change. (spies gaining XP for CS rig was the right change, but exponential influence from rigging is so short thought)

    The Inquisitor part for missionaries is overpowered. Together with the overpowered Borobudur spread buff, what could stop your missionaries? OK, Spain. The yield part of the belief instead is kinda poor, I think only worth to note if you are Ghandi sitting with 10 huge cities in the mid of a Pangäa Island.
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    In spite of things, Denmark has been underperforming a bit as of late if isolated or unable to capitalize on war due to map placement.

    G
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    If you reduce the influence granted by diplomatic units much more than it is currently granted, the ability of players to use them globally before offsetting natural decay becomes a losing battle. The values exist as-is because they’re large enough for an immediate impact, specifically one that gives players breathing room to capitalize on their next diplomatic unit without constant struggles against decay eating into their prior Diplo missions. When it was a bit lower in the past many players complained that Diplo units were not worth their cost.

    G
     
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    The issue with balancing Denmark has always been that the civ has a high skill floor. Individually, all 3 of their components are very good, and they synergize with each other very well. The problem is they have a pillage economy, and proper use of their kit is ravaging land 1st and conquering 2nd. The degree to which a skilled player can exploit this better than the AI has been a topic of discussion before.

    I guess I'm a little worried that 6:c5food: on ITRs might be one more thing that human players can use better than the AI, because it combines with the Jelling Stone's existing build anywhere bonus. A 4:c5food: ITR bonus in all cities, rather than just coastal, is already quite a significant buff.
     
  19. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Prince

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    I actually really like the diplo units where they are at the moment! They still cost quite a bit, but at least what you get for your money/hammers is significant.

    I think what might be a good balance to spies gaining xp from rigging city-states might be reducing the chances of success (reducing the influence that each success grants slightly). I'm not certain that's neccessary, but that's the kind of balance adjustment that would seem approptiate in this context. Spies levelling up in city-states actually devalues diplo units a little, relatively speaking.

    That said, in the current situation it's actually kind of a difficult choice to decide whether my spies should go into diplomat roles or rigging city-states. I'm leaning slightly towards city-states, but I will most likely split them between the two (and one in my capital for defense).
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
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  20. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I recently brought this up in the balance thread, but Dioceses has a comparable missionary impact with better overall yields than Universalism (with 4 different types of yields instead of 2). I could never really see myself choosing Uni over Dio if given the choice. Probably could use a tweak with these two beliefs.
     

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