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New Beta Version - October 8th (10-8)

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Oct 8, 2019.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    Hey all,

    New beta version inbound. Mainly cleanup from prior versions and some light tweaks based on feedback since the last version. Going to let the bugfixes settle in and, if all good, I'll make an official version later this week or early next week.

    Code:
    General
        AI Bugfixes
        Tactical AI improvements
        Diplo AI fixes
        Github fixes
        UI tweaks and fixes for combat window
    
    Balance
        Buildings
            Medical Lab- now changes city Population by 2 instantly when constructed; boosts local specialists by +2 (was +1)
            Wind Plant/Hydro Plant - doubled tile yield bonuses
            Factory - each Factory boosts production of all Factories by +1
            Broadcast Tower and Stock Exchange - now +1 per 2 citizens (was +1 per 5)
            Stadium - now +1 GAP per 4 citizens
        Civs
            Poland
                Ducal Stable - now grants +100 culture when constructed
        Wonders
            Pentagon - removed gold upgrade cost reduction; added 'Terracotta' effect of unit duplication for land units
        Difficulty
            Removed free worker on immortal/deity, increased ABC yields to compensate
        Policies
            Industry
                Mercantilism - swapped gold per construction with science per construction
                Protectionism - now grants +10% food/science in WLTKD cities
            Fealty
                Serfdom - now 33% internal (was 50%)
            Rationalism
                Enlightenment - now +10% science during GA (removed WLTKD element)
        Units
            Slight bump to CS for mounted ranged units
    Not savegame compatible. Online as of 9:55PM CST.

    Link: https://mega.nz/#F!2Jdw3aQT!Z49gV7KAyMq6YiG5BD9jaA
     
  2. SpankmyMetroid

    SpankmyMetroid Chieftain

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    Hmm. Was the mid-late game that slow? Those are some pretty explosive changes to industrial-modern buildings.

    Also, I am so, so ready to play pokemon (catch em’ all) with all the land units and get a cornucopia of warriors to tanks in one turn from the new pentagon.
     
    JamesNinelives and vyyt like this.
  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    My notes below

     
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  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Warlord

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    I don't think 1 GAP per 4 citizens is really worth the text it takes up on the stadium. I would add happiness to it instead.
     
    Dimmy likes this.
  5. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 Chieftain

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    2 :c5happy: on a late game Building could be good, though a boring effect (Stadiums already give 1 Happy, -1 Boredom).

    I don't like that the Broadcast Tower does not have Yields. Maybe this change will make me overlook that.

    The "Terracotta Army" effect on the Pentagon looks fun. If you do have old Units, the discounts to Upgrades from Imperialism will help make them relevant.

    Industry becomes the balanced 3rd tier Policy Tree, as it seems to have lost its Science weakness. I would argue that any boost to Buildings is an indirect buff to Industry. If you say Rationalism is good in Peace and Imperialism is good for War, can Industry push War against Rationalism Players while outpacing Imperialism Players in between Wars? Or will their infrastructure not carry them?
     
  6. General_Drax

    General_Drax Chieftain

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    "Difficulty
    Removed free worker on immortal/deity, increased ABC yields to compensate"

    Does it mean that the worker is only left on Emperor ?
     
    Kim Dong Un, tu_79 and andersw like this.
  7. FoxOfWar

    FoxOfWar Chieftain

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    Sweet stuff all around. Gonna start testin' right away.
     
  8. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Stadium Idea: What if it increased the empire Golden Age bonus by X%. The thing is, at that point in the game often times GAs are already permanent. So why not make them better instead.
     
    Kim Dong Un likes this.
  9. TranceBlossom

    TranceBlossom Chieftain

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    I love all these changes in theory, can't wait to actually play with them.

    I always viewed Rationalism as the "snowball harder" tree, Imperialism as the war tree (obviously), and Industry as the "I need hammers/gold NOW" tree. I've used it when there's some snowballing civ I need to take care of and my Tradition-Artistry cities aren't giving me the hammers to do so. I personally felt it had its use, so I'm curious to see how it feels with the yields spread out a bit more.
     
  10. BlueCulture

    BlueCulture Chieftain

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    Finally came around putting together all the notes I took from the last 3 games. Settings: standard speed, prince, huge, score victory

    Feedback:
    • Air units should not be effected by roads and railroads.
    • Dreadnought promotion is too strong in my opinion. +5CS and + 5HP would be enough.
    • And Interceptor + Air Defense should be put together. I have never used either promotion because it's mostly useless.
    • Upgrading from Explorer to Zeppelin is way too expensive. Upgrading a pathfinders to scout cost about 80g and upgrading an explorer to zeppelin was 480g. Mind you, it was the same unit and I upgraded it back to back so the promotions and everything else are the same.
    • The AI focuses too heavily on unique units and disregards other types of units that are important for war. E.g. Suleiman mostly built his unique ranged unit and little melee units so he got rekt.
    • Most unique units don't require resources to build, but some do. I don't agree with that kind of "balance" and find it a big oversight to leave such an important part of the game to RNG. It should be either all or none require resources. For example let's take iron. Which nation did not have iron in past history? It can be found everywhere, but not in Civ V. And not even for the unique unit for which it it known for... :(
    • Asking an AI for public friendship and getting declined should not disable me from asking again. This leads to me never asking any AI out because even if they are very friendly, they may decline and either of us can't ask again for many many rounds so I don't even bother to ask them anymore, I just let them ask.
    • City states need more units. They can easily be conquered by 1 AI city.
    • Great Wall should be ineffective against players that have Dynamite.
    • Vassalage makes little sense after a change a few months back. Now the AI still doesn't want to peace out for surrender even after losing their capital + a few cities. E.g. Suleiman had 7 cities. I took his capital and his 2 best cities and only after taking another one he surrendered. This needs fixing. This feeds into that the problem the AI also forgets it lost a few cities in the previous war so making a short peace treaty resets that requirement. I think losing the capital and maybe 1 city would make everything okay again and still better than just the capital which can be cheesed.
    • The pioneer and colonist are way too expensive compared to a settler. What is it, like 5 or 6 times the cost of settler?
    • I suggest giving jet fighters the option to spec into fighting land and naval units. Today's mission are done by them and not bombers because they need to be precise and quick. Good Example:
      Fighters should not have a bonus vs helicopters (gunships). Jets are not made to fight slow and low flying helis and perform miserable against them. In fact, it's easier for a heli to shoot down a jet. And the J-CATCH program is proof of that with a "5-to-1 kill ratio": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH
    • I advocate for Missile promotions because since the V2 rocket to the cruise missile there were many iterations and improvements done. My idea is 3 little branches consisting of 3x +2 range, 3x +33% CS against cities and 3x +33% CS against units.
    • Renaming Jungle to Rainforest would be more accurate because jungles are usually only small parts of rainforests. "Jungle, however, may well occur close to, and within, rainforests, since all that is usually required in these warm, moist areas for this type of vegetation to develop is an adequate supply of light. Therefore, in places where trees are sparse, jungle can thrive. Typically, jungle vegetation will be found at the edges of rainforests, along rivers within the forest, and in areas where trees have fallen due to natural disasters such as high winds, or where trees have been felled by humans, and the land then left to itself." https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-the-jungle-and-the-rainforest.htm
    • Renaming the "Refuse" button to "Decline" would fit much more in most cases.

    Questions:
    • What exactly does blockading a city do?
    • Some melee units, like the destroyer, have RCS promotions. Is this a bug?
    • Does the "Give me 10 rounds to prepare" properly work? In one game (standard speed) the AI came back 15 rounds later and in another example (still same game) the AI never came back. Did it decide against going, even though we both agreed on going together, I don't understand.
    • About charts. Late medieval (standard speed, prince, huge) I was maxed out at 55 military units with 200 population (16 cities) and all military buildings while my eternally angry neighbor Mr.Zulu apparently had 25% more military might than me with just 100 pop (8 cities). I notice this every game now that other civs easily outperform in the charts and I know for a fact there is no way a small civ could have a similar army. But when using info addict the chat seem to be fixed, showing my empire has by far the largest military power. Is the ranking chart intentionally skewed?
    • Have city states their own techs or from allies? Some are really weak and some very strong in terms of city defense.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019 at 5:23 AM
    Dimmy, CrazyG, Mirosha and 1 other person like this.
  11. Aqinu

    Aqinu Chieftain

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    1. Gives additional combat bonus to all units
    2. In this release I don't see RCS promotions for naval melee (the previous one had, regardless it was just a typo)
     
  12. cerk

    cerk Chieftain

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    Check CrazyG's comment https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/military-power-score.648226/

    The city does not heal and it gets -20% defence.
     
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  13. andersw

    andersw Chieftain

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    Blockade is when a city is surrounded, this means it will not heal, often more important on higher difficulties in awkward terrain.
    A city not blockaded heal a certain amount and if you do less with your units you won't get anywhere.

    The 10 rounds is IF they go to war, they can change their mind for reasons, if however you are the one attacking first my experience is that they will join in, because the agreement is mutual.

    Citystates gets tech I think according to an average of the player+AI, this is from vague memory so don't quote me on it.
    AI will probably (depending on difficulty) give units to citystates if they are allied, a military CS is stronger afaik and of course the general rule regarding city placement with hills, mountains and such play a role.
     
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  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    Yeah, I really don’t much care for this pentagon change. I wanted it changed, yes, but I have a problem with a free copy at this late stage. This will result in copies of low tech garrison units, possibly a lot of extraneous, obsolete lads.

    I’d rather the pentagon give a free military base and a specific number of a specific unit. My preference would be 4-5 special forces, which are unlocked a tech after pentagon. It gives imperialism players a wonder with a good shot in the arm of a strong unit that can be rapidly deployed.

    @Gazebo, im thinking of putting together a sort of beta modmod of those power plant proposals so we can make the plants give total terrain coverage. that way, you and others can test the balance/game feel of a potential power plant rework. To that end, I submitted a feature request for a process % production modifier. Could that please be added to the dll?
     
  15. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    First of all, thanks for all the detailed feedback. Feedback based on ingame playtesting like this is always highly appreciated. :)

    I'll try my best to answer your queries.

    What exactly does blockading a city do?
    A blockaded city cannot heal, does not receive the bonuses from City Connections and takes 20% increased damage from all sources.

    Some melee units, like the destroyer, have RCS promotions. Is this a bug?
    Yes - but it's only a text issue. Two of them were fixed to say CS as intended in this latest beta.

    Does the "Give me 10 rounds to prepare" properly work? In one game (normal gamespeed) the AI came back 15 rounds later and in another example (still same game) the AI never came back. Did it decide against going, even though we both agreed on going together, I don't understand.
    You must be friends with the AI to start a coop war with them. If you end your DoF in the Discuss menu, denounce them or declare war on them (or they do any of these things to you), they will cancel their coop war plans. Also, they won't bother coming back if you're already at war. I'll look into the issue with the time counter.

    About charts. Late medieval (normal, prince, huge) I was maxed out at 55 military units with 200 population (16 cities) and all military buildings while my eternally angry neighbor Mr.Zulu apparently had 25% more military might than me with just 100 pop (8 cities). I notice this every game now that other civs easily outperform in the charts and I know for a fact there is no way a small civ could have a similar army. But when using info addict the chat seem to be fixed, showing my empire has by far the largest military power. Is the ranking chart intentionally skewed?
    Your military might is reduced when you have more cities; the logic is that you need to spread them out more to defend your empire, lest you go the way of the Roman Empire. Military score was tweaked recently for being too punishing. You can see the raw military power in Demographics (# of soldiers).

    Have city states their own techs or from allies? Some are really weak and some very strong in terms of city defense.
    I believe they do their own research, but I could be wrong about that. I know that the Barbarians gain a tech once 80% of civs have researched it rather than doing any research themselves; it's possible they use that kind of system. City-States do get yield bonuses and cost reductions to compensate for only having one city to work with, though.

    The AI was changed in the latest beta to prioritize Defense buildings more, so you should see more of them building Walls etc.

    Also, a City-State that a major civ has Pledged to Protect gains a 5% CS bonus per PTP, up to 25%. Siam's unique ability gives an additional +25% CS to City-States they're allied to.

    I don't have a comment on every individual point for your feedback, but I can say a few things:

    Air units should not be affected by roads and railroads.
    If roads/railroads have any effect on air units, that sounds like a bug that should be reported on Github.

    Upgrading from Explorer to Zeppelin is way too expensive.

    I agree with this based on my own experience. The Explorer -> Zeppelin upgrade cost is huge.

    Asking an AI for public friendship and getting declined should not disable me from asking again. This leads to me never asking any AI out because even if they are very friendly, they may decline and either of us can't ask again for many many rounds so I don't even bother to ask them anymore, I just let them ask.
    This has irked me for a long time as well; I'll see what I can do to fix it.

    City states need more units. They can easily be conquered by 1 AI city.

    They start with 0-3 melee units based on difficulty level, and they get certain Production bonuses, but they have a unit cap and they're not meant to be formidable opponents. That's why they rely on major civs to protect them from big bad Genghis Khan. :)

    Great Wall should be ineffective against players that have Dynamite.
    This is a vanilla thing that doesn't make sense to me, either. The adversaries are the ones breaching the wall, so whether they've researched Dynamite should be what's considered.

    Vassalage makes little sense after a change a few months back. Now the AI still doesn't want to peace out for surrender even after losing their capital + a few cities. E.g. Suleiman had 7 cities. I took his capital and his 2 best cities and only after taking another one he surrendered. This needs fixing. This feeds into that the problem the AI also forgets it lost a few cities in the previous war so making a short peace treaty resets that requirement. I think losing the capital and maybe 1 city would make everything okay again and still better than just the capital which can be cheesed.
    I think they require a total war score of 90 to consider capitulation and 100 makes it guaranteed, but I may be wrong about that.

    The pioneer and colonist are way too expensive compared to a settler. What is it, like 5 or 6 times the cost of settler?
    The cost was reduced in this latest beta.

    Renaming the "Refuse" button to "Decline" would fit much more in most cases.
    Well, they're functionally identical, but I agree with you, haha.
     
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  16. randomnub

    randomnub Chieftain

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    Everything looks good at a first glance, I'm just a bit disappointed by some lack of creativity here:

    Another circus and another terracotta, sure they help two underwhelming buildings shine but there's no unique feeling...

    ...something along those lines for example :thumbsup:
     
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  17. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    The wiki page on difficulty settings has been updated to the latest version.

    Also, since I've seen several questions about how to modify the difficulty settings for your own game, I wrote a guide on the wiki describing how to customize them, and reorganized the DifficultyMod.xml file to make it easier for modders/players to understand and change the values.

    I hope this is useful to y'all. :)
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I just noticed that it was the CS, not RCS that was increased for Skirmisher units. So now they are tankier than the equivalent ranged unit.

    I'm not sure what we are going for with skirmishers and this change. The point of the skirmish is to avoid attacks in the first place. Right now I get more RCS for less hammers with range units, the fact that skirmisher can tank a little better blows I don't want them to take in the first place I don't think is going to change anything.
     
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    multiple buildings have the same effect
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Warlord

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    But multiple wonders don’t, and in this case, the two buildings with the same effect are literally on the same tech.

    I’ve also advocated for reducing the repetition/overlap of buildings/policies/UAs in many other cases.

    I also agree that 1:c5goldenage:/4:c5citizen: is a negligible buff. I would advocate for having the 1:c5happy: given back to stadiums, or maybe even give them 2:c5happy:
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019 at 2:11 PM
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