New Beta Version - September 15th (9-15)

[andersw]

So Rome in my recent Emperor game was able to settle his first city while I was still building the pyramids. That's a bit much to me.

Depends a bit on what policy he took but a settler is cheaper than Pyramids so is that strange?
If you play without mods emperor AI starts with a worker so 4 pop isnt an issue if there are farm tiles available and if he went tradition no workers are needed.
I dont have the numbers in my head but ... I think monument shrine settler was cheaper in hammers than monument pyramids or atleast same-ish.

On an opposite weird note I had tradition Korea getting really hosed and robbed on pretty much every wonder (ethiopia and brazil wanted them all) he was last in tech most of the game.

 

[JamesNinelives]

Can I recommend something? I saw pinappledan and phantomaxl mention it in the ocean tiles balance thread not too long ago I think. Instead of buffing industry's numbers, why not make the power plants buff the processes? This is what industry does best in my opinion so it would benefit most of it and maybe compete in science by converting to Better. Makes the tree more unique instead of mashing it together with rationalism with more boring %science bonus.

Do people use the processes much? I don't find it comes up super often in my games. Granted I don't take industry much.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

I use the processes fairly regularly. I use the culture one when I'm gunning for a wonder and need that one last social policy for it, or when I'm timing my great writer(s). I use the science one when I'm rushing a tech or timing my great scientist(s). Farming is used very rarely, perhaps early on when each turn is crucial to grab the desired settling spots. Gold when I urgently need money and can't get it elsewhere. Haven't used the defense process in a long time.

 

[andersw]

Do people use the processes much? I don't find it comes up super often in my games. Granted I don't take industry much.

No or ... well sometimes cities run out of useful buildings then I use process, usually art because you can't get enough culture going wide.
In the occational crisis I produce gold.
But there are likely things I could skip to produce process instead, more science is maybe good for example.

 

[CrazyG]

Do people use the processes much? I don't find it comes up super often in my games. Granted I don't take industry much.

You can stack the culture process with the World's Fair, a golden age, and faith-bought great writers to generate a crazy amount of culture very quickly.

I also use the research process quite often, even if it is just for a turn or two. In most games I use a process for at least a few turns.

 

[Deljade]

Do people use the processes much? I don't find it comes up super often in my games. Granted I don't take industry much.

I've only happened to utilise them in industry, you end up having so much gold and hammers that you finish your buildings and units super fast and got spare turns to pump on processes. Just try them out and you will see how big the yields are. I guess it usually favours order and wide, having a lot of cities pump out culture and science is very strong. Processes can also fix unhappiness. It happened to me that a city would go from 15 unhappiness from boredom to 0 when creating art.
It's a unique playstyle and it's working well for me when I go for industry.

 

[JamesNinelives]

I actually miss not having the food process from turn 1 in a recent game. I was trying to build a wonder but had to wait for my second social policy to arrive. Starting building a unit and then switched to the wonder, but by the time the wonder was complete I has lost the hammers I invested in the unit to decay.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

First off, Thank you Zebo for making the Alhambra and now Industry change.

Processes being incorporated into Industry actually sounds like a cool, useful little niche. I'm all for it.

 

[Bhawb]

Do people use the processes much? I don't find it comes up super often in my games. Granted I don't take industry much.

You would if you took Industry. The huge production/gold investing bonuses alongside weaker science mean you finish buildings faster than you can research them, especially as you tick into the late game and new buildings get further and further apart. I think it makes for a unique "thing" for industry to be good at, and involves some active management instead of just getting passive science because you need it.

 

[Deljade]

Maybe utilising processes accordingly is something the AI isn't great at so Gazebo observed industry AI falling behind in AI only games. I don't really think industry is weaker than the other trees, provided proper play.
If that's the case, I think it's better to cultivate industry's peculiarity, instead of dumbing it down for the AI.

 

[Stalker0]

I have had some pretty major happiness struggles in the last few games as Persia. Even with just 4 cities I've struggled to stay even at the 35% range. I was authority each time, and though I hadn't done any conquests, I just couldn't get my happiness righted.

In my latest game, I have a 5 city Persia that I have been able to maintain. I was in the 30s for a long time, until I got the happiness policy for authority and I finally got to the 50 mark. I think my religion (Goddess of Nature with a heavy mountain heavy area) is helping a lot this time.

So my main concern is just inconsistency. I am not sure what I did wrong in my 4 city game where I struggling so badly, whereas now in my 5 city all is well....and I really don't feel that I fundamentally changed my playstyle.

 

[Zuizgond]

Is it still true in this patch? That was implemented in 21/08 patch and I am having a game in 31/08 patch and it is not true in this patch. Couldn't find anywhere saying it has been reversed.

After

• Dimmy
• Sep 16, 2019

units damaged qhile inside the island

Before

• Dimmy
• Sep 16, 2019

Units inside the island

I confirm what you say. AI frigates can attack tiles that are not coastal.

 

[Kim Dong Un]

I'm still finishing up my 9/9 version game, but happiness has felt perfect for me.

Playing a wide Songhai. Jinete was heavy with Mandekalu/Knights/Lancers, but there are still formidable situations that can arise. Haile was bunkered pretty good with Great Wall and Himeji + Orders.

Spoiler :

Even with the ranged attack and Mandekalu flanking bonus, you can see it still wasn't a one-hit on this pike.

Spoiler :

This is what a successful Domination run should look like though. The pacing felt nice; 3 vassals and my continent covered in 250 turns. I'm prospering from the 20+ wonders and a Commerce/Tithe combo, but I've still been susceptible to unhappiness from my massive empire. Vassalizing Haile basically wrapped up this game (only King), but all has felt well. The Jinete and Bombardment nerf on current version would slow this pace a bit further, which is fine.

Spoiler :

 

[amateurgamer88]

I'm curious how people feel about peaceful wide for the recent couple of versions.

Going Tall with Tradition has little to no problems with happiness and is a bit difficult at the start when you need to build Settlers and not getting as much Culture as you prefer. As the game goes, you can steadily get the momentum to get more ahead than your neighbors.

Going aggressive with Authority seems to work well where you get only a handful of cities and take the rest through force as the unhappiness from puppets is manageable. This does require a balance between puppets and owned cities but it's something that makes the place style more interesting.

Only Progress, to me at least, seems to struggle as the costs of both the Settlers and the unhappiness that comes with expanding that comes with wide. I find expanding more aggressively with Settlers seems to punish me more than anything. More cities means more tech and policy costs while developing those cities get tough when unhappiness is hindering your growth. The unhappiness makes it more difficult to get the military to defend your borders. Going wide make Barracks more valuable as the ability to reduce Distress is more important but that tech is more favorable for a warmonger. Maybe it's my playstyle but Progress seems far weaker than the other two. When a policy tree should reward a wider approach through peaceful means, I don't see Progress really making that possible.

 

[tu_79]

Only Progress, to me at least, seems to struggle as the costs of both the Settlers and the unhappiness that comes with expanding that comes with wide. I find expanding more aggressively with Settlers seems to punish me more than anything. More cities means more tech and policy costs while developing those cities get tough when unhappiness is hindering your growth. The unhappiness makes it more difficult to get the military to defend your borders. Going wide make Barracks more valuable as the ability to reduce Distress is more important but that tech is more favorable for a warmonger. Maybe it's my playstyle but Progress seems far weaker than the other two. When a policy tree should reward a wider approach through peaceful means, I don't see Progress really making that possible.

So far, as long as I can place 5-6 cities before a fight, it seems to be working well. Emperor at least. It's true that the start is very slow, and if the neighbours are close, you are not settling first for sure. But if you have room, you can keep founding cities when the others must stop. I didn't test how does it behave in mid-late game.

 

[Stalker0]

One other thing I will note, is I do think Skirmishers have been hit too hard. Its a combination of both their mobility decrease and their strength nerf. C Bowman are prevalent enough now, that while skirmishers have better mobility, its not worth the -2 CS. I would at least bump them back up to an 11 dmg.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Progress is working well for me. It's not easy, but I find it more enjoyable than Tradition or Authority, unless I'm really in the mood for either turtling or a bloody rampage.

On an unrelated note, something that I've been noticing lately (perhaps it was happening before as well) is that often Civ A (for example Dido like the ********* she usually is ) bribes Civ B to declare war on me. Civ B is far away, we never had any problems, perhaps we even had lots in common. But Civ B wants to keep the war going for much longer than the duration of its obligation towards Civ A, even if nothing is happening on the battlefield and even if we had decent relations before. Furthermore, I'm noticing that Civ B will sometimes bribe Civ C to declare war on me, and so on. I mean, in a way it makes sense and the game more interesting, but it's like dominoes where a starting investment by one civ leads to a chain of bribes for DoWs and/or long wars without anything happening. It's been happening even when I have a decent army and when I've been trying to be friendly with all the civs. It just makes me want to restart the game on a new map with the same civs and go on a warmongering spree...

 

[saleembkarim]

Is the Ranged CS change meant to help the AI (among other things) ? Just out of curiosity.
Jinete and Bombardament nerfs were needed, thank you for promptly implementing them.

I think it was partly done to give a tiny bit of extra motivation to use melee units to attack, rather than just using them as meat shields.

 

[TranceBlossom]

Civ B wants to keep the war going for much longer than the duration of its obligation towards Civ A, even if nothing is happening on the battlefield and even if we had decent relations before.

Yeah, did something change with the "Negotiate Peace" trigger for the AI? I had one game where Sweden would not let the war he declared on me end despite him throwing units into my archers with neither of us gaining anything for ages. It seemed excessive even for a warmonger AI, but maybe it was just the AI thinking he was still significantly more powerful than me in terms of numbers despite never gaining anything.

 

[Jiggly]

Did this version fix the coastal attack only issue for Ranged Naval Units? As of 9/9 they were still able to target inland units