New Beta Version - September 25th (9-25)

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I met Spain halfway through the game and discovered they were about 40% higher on the scoreboard than me, yet the very next turn they declared that they were afraid of me. That doesn’t make much sense. Another continent, no military presence or a big military at all, they were leading in science and culture, yet they were afraid and I made them a vassal.

I vassaled Ghenis Khan who had double the amount of cities (25) of anybody else. He won every war he fought and got cities out of that from all sides. Felt like a cheat. Granted I already had multiple vassals which gave me more points than him but maybe it also factors in the military of all vassals?

Maybe @Gazebo wants to clarify how a successful vassalage demand is calculated before this turns into a witchhunt.

Good lord. Guys and gals, report things that you think are bugs to github. This kind of stuff is just not helpful without logs...saves...etc.

G
 
Good lord. Guys and gals, report things that you think are bugs to github. This kind of stuff is just not helpful without logs...saves...etc.

G
Will do next time, just for consistency. I hadn’t thought it a bug at the time though.
 
The mechanic called ,, They know you are competing with them'' for -44 relations ship points? :D Well problem is, that with this flexible AI logic, which shuffle their win priorities each turn, i may easily end with this modifier literaly with all AIs. Good relationships make one Ai prone to voluntary become a slut for another AI. Well, i would really like to see, how much they are able to forgive, i barely remember a game, when i have had a good relations with direct neighbour no matter a circumstances. There always have been ,,something''. AI always find a reason for hating you or imagine competition when they want to. That simply seems to me hypocrite to say, that for a thing for which an AI will hate a human player can also become a same reason for an AI to willingly send their yields to another AI and forgive them whatever happens(except perhaps heavy warmongering)

edit: I wish at least a one thing. That an AI become capable for attacking a vassal and actually fight him, even if that will mean also pull into a conflict a master.
 
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Pls... wait... short distraction before you can start again to shout each other :)

Look at my beatiful giant empire at turn 22...... :) (3 times territory expand ruins)
 
The mechanic called ,, They know you are competing with them'' for -44 relations ship points? :D Well problem is, that with this flexible AI logic, which shuffle their win priorities each turn, i may easily end with this modifier literaly with all AIs. Good relationships make one Ai prone to voluntary become a slut for another AI. Well, i would really like to see, how much they are able to forgive, i barely remember a game, when i have had a good relations with direct neighbour no matter a circumstances. There always have been ,,something''. AI always find a reason for hating you or imagine competition when they want to. That simply seems to me hypocrite to say, that for a thing for which an AI will hate a human player can also become a same reason for an AI to willingly send their yields to another AI and forgive them whatever happens(except perhaps heavy warmongering)

edit: I wish at least a one thing. That an AI become capable for attacking a vassal and actually fight him, even if that will mean also pull into a conflict a master.
My same thoughts also. I wrote somewhere else the AI would very rarely befriend me. But never a neighboring AI. They always find something, anything, and then make and elephant out of it and boom. While at the same time forgive and even befriend civs who took their cities ..? On top of that they never forget bad things from me, not for 4000 years haha.
 
Pls... wait... short distraction before you can start again to shout each other :)

Look at my beatiful giant empire at turn 22...... :) (3 times territory expand ruins)

LMAO. You're supposed to be the Empire-of-Sacrifical-Captive instead of Empire-of-Great-Expanse!
 
The mechanic called ,, They know you are competing with them'' for -44 relations ship points? :D Well problem is, that with this flexible AI logic, which shuffle their win priorities each turn, i may easily end with this modifier literaly with all AIs. Good relationships make one Ai prone to voluntary become a slut for another AI. Well, i would really like to see, how much they are able to forgive, i barely remember a game, when i have had a good relations with direct neighbour no matter a circumstances. There always have been ,,something''. AI always find a reason for hating you or imagine competition when they want to. That simply seems to me hypocrite to say, that for a thing for which an AI will hate a human player can also become a same reason for an AI to willingly send their yields to another AI and forgive them whatever happens(except perhaps heavy warmongering)

edit: I wish at least a one thing. That an AI become capable for attacking a vassal and actually fight him, even if that will mean also pull into a conflict a master.

My same thoughts also. I wrote somewhere else the AI would very rarely befriend me. But never a neighboring AI. They always find something, anything, and then make and elephant out of it and boom. While at the same time forgive and even befriend civs who took their cities ..? On top of that they never forget bad things from me, not for 4000 years haha.

If you are friendly with an AI, this modifier will never appear. Make better friends.

G
 
Being friends with a neighbouring AI is certainly possible, if there is no heavy border tension and you work to improve the relations (trading, sending caravans...). Of course, you may have games where it's not possible because the nearby AI wants to have your lands... but that's exactly the same if poor Ethiopia starts next to me playing Aztecs - he can be friendly as he likes, I'll still attack him. That's how it works.
 
If you are friendly with an AI, this modifier will never appear. Make better friends.

Clever to not bothering with an actual question. Will you make a possibility to attack vassals or not? You know, i know how to do that. It is just your AI do not. Like now, playing Greece- Songhai want to attack my vassal Atilla. Can he? Nope,unless he will attack me. Do an AI seem to notice that little obstacle? Doesn't seem so.
 
Clever to not bothering with an actual question. Will you make a possibility to attack vassals or not? You know, i know how to do that. It is just your AI do not. Like now, playing Greece- Songhai want to attack my vassal Atilla. Can he? Nope,unless he will attack me. Do an AI seem to notice that little obstacle? Doesn't seem so.

I like how you assume I'm acting in bad faith. Cool.

G
 
I think the "they think/know you're competing with them" malus happens if said AI is aiming for a certain type of victory and you're in the lead for that type.
It has been in VP for quite a long time already. It's there so that you cant simply be happy go lucky making friends with everyone and win the game without any competition/conflict. The closer to victory, the stronger malus.. Strong bonds can still counter this, but expect some backstabbing near the end if your military might are close.
 
Being friends with a neighbouring AI is certainly possible, if there is no heavy border tension and you work to improve the relations (trading, sending caravans...). Of course, you may have games where it's not possible because the nearby AI wants to have your lands... but that's exactly the same if poor Ethiopia starts next to me playing Aztecs - he can be friendly as he likes, I'll still attack him. That's how it works.
Ethiopia is the most dangerous run away if let alone though :p
 
I like how you assume I'm acting in bad faith. Cool.

But that's still not an answer :D You know, that right now that vassalage do not completely work as intended, volunteer or not.It is about exchange yields for one yield AND protection. But how should masters protect their vassals, if they can not be attacked in the first place. I am going to post this on github, because THAT SEEMS to me as bug, so noone can accuse me of not doing that.
 
But that's still not an answer :D.

I've reread your posts and I'm still not sure what the question is. I can't tell if you're complaining about vassal mechanics, AI limitations, or something else entirely. From what I've seen if you post a clear question, without backhanded insults, your odds of getting a clear answer go up immensely.
 
I've reread your posts and I'm still not sure what the question is. I can't tell if you're complaining about vassal mechanics, AI limitations, or something else entirely. From what I've seen if you post a clear question, without backhanded insults, your odds of getting a clear answer go up immensely.

I have wrote it multiple times, what i desire to change in this system. And i wasn't alone in this. I won't advocate myself for my critique, because that way i have always written and we got used to each other here. I very rarely appear to complain about numbers and mechanics tied to that. however, if something seem unfair and stupid to me, i will criticize it. No need for analyzing my messages for being insults.

It seems to me natural, that a thing i critizice for being a stupid and Gazebo,on the other hand, advocate it because AI is faring well with that, then some tensions will appear. Especially if someone intentioanlly ignore some proposal. Even no is a simple answer. Vassalage is a complex system i have no wishes to turn it off. So i have asked about ONE THING, which i really wish to get answer.
 
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But that's still not an answer :D You know, that right now that vassalage do not completely work as intended, volunteer or not.It is about exchange yields for one yield AND protection. But how should masters protect their vassals, if they can not be attacked in the first place. I am going to post this on github, because THAT SEEMS to me as bug, so noone can accuse me of not doing that.
I'm quite sure, that in a recent game an AI (Oda) did declare war on a vassal of mine (Shaka). I didn't care very much about that, because I intended to later destroy the Zulu anyway. So I can't remember if there was actual fighting between them. There was no state of war declared between Oda and me.
 
I'm quite sure, that in a recent game an AI (Oda) did declare war on a vassal of mine (Shaka). I didn't care very much about that, because I intended to later destroy the Zulu anyway. So I can't remember if there was actual fighting between them. There was no state of war declared between Oda and me.

Simple answer is- no. he can DoW your vassal, however it will peace out atuomatically next turn.
 
O.K. Now I wonder, if that was an opportunity for me to declare war on Oda, without getting malus for warmongering...
 
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