New challenge: earliest possible UHVs

[TDK]

I don't want to spoil the party , but the very essence of virtual victory requires to register the win for the turn when Paris actually has the most culture in the world. I mean no one questions that at 1700 AD Paris will be there with the most culture in the world. But the year as it is right now is the year for the two UHVs, not for all 3 .

I have to agree with Tigranes although 1540 AD is absolutely magnificent. I could as well say that I have a VV as the Dutch in 920 AD since nobody can ever stop me from winning (that is exaggerated of course but you get my point), but that's not the point of a VV, or what I meant in my post back then. I know that this is not my challenge, but I'd keep it off the list at the moment. It shouldn't be that hard to change the strategy again to fit in a GA I think.

I have to agree with Tigranes and Wessel on this. I do think your strategy is a completely legitimate one AP since it is 80%, I think you should just reload the game and somehow get the artist instead.

 

[TDK]

[Thanks to Tigranes for the wonderful suggestion of getting Alexandria early. I did not use the somewhat gimmicky Iceland galley flip which detracts too much from stability, but used my trademark gimmick of capturing capitals at start. If one wants to combine these two techniques one can probably get even earlier without having to research Astronomy.]

So extending my observations about the idiotic AI behavior of moving ALL their units except for a couple settlers (which is even more idiotic since they'll be captured) from their capital, I decided to conquer England AND Spain this time. All troops go towards Spain and Alexandria, and 2 longbows sit on the dyed forest NW of Alexandria until Arabia decided to sacrifice their troops weakening the longbow and pike there. 2 longbows go to the sheep 1NE of Madrid, and 1 axeman with a warrior built from Inverness goes to just south of the Thames. Madrid and London are duly captured. And even though there are newly spawned troops for the newly dead civs, they will make peace long before these troops get close to your cities. Spain will even give you Monotheism. Then they fade away from history... Rhye really needs to fix this stupid AI behavior.

Spoiler :

Really lucky and got calendar with the hut in Sweden, but it meant I had to whip lots of libraries around. Compass, guilds, optics, astronomy, then 0% science. Got Mali, Aztecs and Khmer as voluntary vassals, capitulated Inca. First city in the West Indies in 1300, liberated to the Aztecs.

The good thing about getting lots of good land is that you can have plenty of production. Plenty of production means plenty of ships produced. But, as Tigranes points out, with England gone, where to find targets?

Prime realization: There is no rule saying you can't give ships to your opponents so that you can sink them! Subprime realization: you can still build triremes even after astronomy, and triremes have no bonus against galleons or caravels!

So I gave tons of galleys (promoted only with 10% chances withdrawal, i.e. useless against attack) to the Dutch, DOW, sank them all the same turn, then gave my damaged triremes to the French, DOW, and sank them all with my galleons/caravels! Even gave a wounded caravel to the Portuguese and sank it with an undamaged trireme which made my 25th ship.

Built Wat Preah Pisnulok, Sistine Chapel, Univ of Sankore. Just got constitution in 1500.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

So I am using TDK's observation/exploit again about declaring war on a civ before they found a city, and most of them will move military units out of their capital. (I figure that's how the Khmer got raze Sogut in his game) Tried this on the French and they attacked instead. But I've got England, Spain and northern Germany. Built Spiral Minaret and Univ of Sankore. Settler whipped from Mexico City since Astronomy was expensive and I don't have the Great Lighthouse. But I got it anyway after I have 5000 g with research at 40%.

Greece was very sneaky this round, having built the AP with Judaism just as I thought the Romans were about to do the same with Christianity (which I belong to). The Germans were their vassals for a while which allowed me to recuperate as there was no way I could have withstood a German onslaught.

And then a strange thing happened: France, Portugal, Netherlands and Russia all asked to be vassals just as I was about to give my 16 galleys away for sinking! So who to give my ships except Rome who has caravels, but I have to sail all my galleys and 2 triremes to North Africa to give him those. Otherwise it would have been VV in 1450 or earlier.

I don't think using that exploit should count for this competition.
If we allow this exploit, the only way to get an early date will be to use it aggressively, which in my opinion leaves us with a poorer game.

 

[Tigranes]

Reloading is cheating, TDK, even worse than any exploit . The life never let's you to reload...

 

[TDK]

But this is a game!
I think it's perfectly legitimate to reload, as long as it doesn't change an outcome to some unlikely result, like taking a city with low odds or similar.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

But it was not cheating with this exploit, since it's only the AI's folly that it leaves its new capital undefended. I actually recreated Charlemagne's empire plus Spain, England and Ireland with just this technique, and the Germans attacked me but still left Berlin undefended for my horse archer to capture.

Remember, blizzrd said the challenge is for this patch alone. If he had raised the challenge a few patches ago I'm sure we would have done even better with our favorite exercise, squats.

And I reload all the time. It's the only way to get things done my way in imaginary life.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Once more to the breach!

So as TDK suggests, one can really be aggressive and go for "Germany must die!" for the earliest UHV. Had to sacrifice 1 longbowman but the AI made peace even though Frankfurt was undefended (it was founded by me, having been razed by barbs). Then Russia went crazy and declared war on me, almost lost Kiev to them. (Being Islam the annoyance towards me was heightened, so when a Christian missionary event from French Rome converted a lot of their cities to Christianity, I breathed a sigh of relief. I actually sent 1 settler across to Siberia, and when Russia declared war, I captured their northernmost city, sent a knight and 2 settlers across the tundra and then gave that city back to them.
The only trip my Captain Cook had to make was to New Zealand and Australia, then he explored the Indian Ocean.
Vassals were Netherlands, Aztecs and Inca who all absorbed plenty of cities. Nobody will take Wellington though...

The only remaining question is whether I should found Budapest. I decided not to since my maintenance was suffering (even though Frankfurt had the Forbidden City). It would not have made my science suffer since it would have only been my 9th city (not counting Wellington). But having Turkey as a neighbor always gave me the creeps.

Spoiler :

 

[AnotherPacifist]

You know, the natives use the kill civ exploit on 2nd turn all the time (but they raze Washington instead).
So logically, the TDK exploit (which I hope he'll agree I name after him) can only be done if you can place a warrior and a stronger unit right next to a spawning civ before they found a city. Here's what has been done so far [and potentially could be--of course America can be done by anybody]:

Khmer: Turkey [Mali]
France: England/Germany (I did it but haven't posted it yet) [Mali,Turkey]
Vikings: England, Spain, Germany [Russia, France, Mali, Turkey]
England: Germany
Maya: [Aztecs]
Rome: [almost anybody after it, especially after Engineering and roads are built]
Babylon:[Persia: if you're going for anything other than UHV]
India: [Khmer and Persia, would save a lot of room for building good cities for population]
China: 3000 BC [almost anybody, but specifically Mongolia, Japan and Khmer would be good]

 

[TDK]

Hmmm, I'm not sure I like that name.

Why the warrior?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So that you can delete the warrior after you use it to capture the city, because it will flip to the AI. You don't have to if you bring a much stronger unit and want some XP (like a crossbow or an axeman) but why take the chance since warriors have a bonus defending cities? Also a warrior is usually the only thing you can build in time besides your starting units which are busy doing something else (like killing another civ).

 

[ambassoon]

Sweeeeeet Aztec game, blizzrd!

 

[blizzrd]

I don't think using that exploit should count for this competition.
If we allow this exploit, the only way to get an early date will be to use it aggressively, which in my opinion leaves us with a poorer game.

Reloading is cheating, TDK, even worse than any exploit . The life never let's you to reload...

I started this thread on the subject of exactly what does constitute cheating when attempting a UHV (or a virtual UHV). The results were quite varied, certainly no consensus was reached. I don't propose to debate the point of what is cheating here though.

Sweeeeeet Aztec game, blizzrd!

Thanks! It only got a high score of just under 5000 though, which was a bit of a let down.

 

[TDK]

I also don't think we should debate "cheating" or anything like that.

I do think you should make a ruling on that specific exploit for this challenge.

 

[blizzrd]

I do think you should make a ruling on that specific exploit for this challenge.

I don't consider that the strategy of giving ships to an AI civ so that you can then sink them is an unfair exploit, perhaps something which some think shouldn't be allowed.

It is allowable under this patch, as is the strategy of using a string of caravels to transport Buddhist missionaries from Khmer homelands to Europe every turn. Each similarly pushes the boundaries, but I don't have a problem with either of these strategies.

Squatting used to be allowable also, and while it was allowed, for the same reason I didn't have a problem with this strategy either (although Rhye obviously did with the recent changes that he implemented).

 

[Tigranes]

And I reload all the time. It's the only way to get things done my way in imaginary life.

I started this thread on the subject of exactly what does constitute cheating when attempting a UHV (or a virtual UHV). The results were quite varied, certainly no consensus was reached. I don't propose to debate the point of what is cheating here though.

I never enjoy debates, particularly about something like a computer game. Just want to point out few things.

1. Reloading is a cheating, cheating a big time, no matter what do others say about it. It goes against the very spirit of the game with a random generator. The game is made so that you are able to lose your Warlord unit to the petty defender with 90% of winning odds. Why bother with odds if it always your way of the story? I am really amazed with some strategy guides where people say -- if you didn't get particular great person just reload. That's a bad service to some innocent newcomers.

2. If you just play the game for yourself you can relax standards, make some deals with yourself -- this time I will reload, this time I won't. But if you publishing your game even just for fun, not to mention challenges like this, then the player who reloads and the player who don't play in fact two different patches. You cannot compare oranges with apples.

3. The best thing is to follow the general standards. Hall of Fame contest has special patch ruling out the cheating with very reasonable rules to follow. I guess there is no need to invent a bike here.

4. @ TDK, sure it's a game, pal, but game is a part of the life, some people even say life is the game itself. You can cheat in life too, and than they call you a cheater or a criminal. You can't take back your move in the game of chess, if you are a serious player. And no one will ask you to reload if you won a Jackpot in the lottery game with infinitesimal odds. Would you reload if YOU kill AI unit with 10% of chance? I doubt it. How fair is it to reload when it happens to you? That's how it meant to be by the designers of the game.

Again, I am not going to defend my point of view, I am here for fun, not debates .
Just wanted to spell out my previous post and let people to claim victories no matter how they were achived .

 

[AnotherPacifist]

1. Reloading is cheating IF you enabled a different random generator with each reload. This is not turned on by default in RFC. Basically what you have is a knowledge of what would happen if you did certain things that turn and didn't. You still have to prepare for having the right troops at the right time, knowing when to declare war before a pact is signed, who to bribe and how much, etc. It's just like having knowledge of the RFC map before the AI does, and if that is cheating, then so is playing RFC.

2. I do agree that the difficulty is more if you don't reload. Can you honestly say that all your victories were done without reload?

3. HOF plays by very different rules. If somebody sets forth a challenge to allow no reloads, I'll be game, but until then...

4. I always beg to take back my move in chess.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

If you haven't guessed the right answer to my sphinx in the "OMG" thread, here's the answer:

Spoiler :

The key is to realize the following points:
1. Spain cannot be allowed to hook up a horse or iron before you attack them.
2. The criteria for controlling territory is a "by" criteria, i.e. once you've done you can give away cities like candy.
3. The AI is very reasonable if you gift them guilds.
4. A corollary to 2. is that the AI has to have a religion to convert to.
5. Sailing and 2 galleys must be had as early as possible, since Spain often builds a trireme for exploration early on. (build or gets as a bonus when you declare war on them?--not clear to me but it's amazing how early it gets one)

So here's what I did:

Spoiler :

1. 2 turns of anarchy, switch to Islam, capture Jerusalem AND Iskanderun. 1st tech is sailing, and all cities other than Makkah (workboats) build research. Found Al-Dammam on the coast for early spread of Islam.
2. All workers go to Jerusalem and Iskanderun to chop trees for galleys, 1 from each city
3. Capture Konya but let it be undefended. Somehow the Byzantines won't recapture it until it has built an extra unit for each city beside the 2 it has to start with.
4. As soon as galleys are built, load all camel archers and sail for Spain.
5. The extra settler goes to Algeria together with your conquering troops sweeping across North Africa.
6. Madrid is captured easily with promoted camel archers (longbows and swordsmen are no match). I got the 1st criteria by move 25.
7. Meet France, gift gold and an Islamic city (I chose Konya since it was going to buffer me and Constantinople--remember all Europeans, Christian or not, are at peace with the Byzantines in this patch)
8. Meet all the other Europeans, gift cities, open borders and induce a switch to Islam (either with tech or as a peace treaty), but make sure you help them protect the cities. E.g. I gave Qandahar to England, and kept a spearman and camel archer there to protect against barbs) The Dutch have to be converted as soon as they appear.
9. In the meantime Spain builds nothing but Islamic missionaries. Roads are more important than pasturing around Madrid. Cities with another religion should be discouraged from growing (i.e. build workers/settlers/Islamic missionaries) so that you can found cities with Islam. This last step I didn't completely grasp so my VV could actually be a little faster.
10. Since I already have Delhi and Jerusalem, I'm guaranteed to win!

1st to liberalism in 1250 (chose gunpowder), built Sankore, Spiral, Leaning Tower, Wat and Sistine Chapel. Just missed Printing Press due to a plague from the pigs in China. (pigs as in animal, not people)

Spoiler :

 

[Tigranes]

5. Sailing and 2 galleys must be had as early as possible, since Spain often builds a trireme for exploration early on. (build or gets as a bonus when you declare war on them?--not clear to me but it's amazing how early it gets one)

Spain flips a trireme from Indy's or Byzantines. 2 out of 3 games I got myself a trireme as Spain.

 

[Tigranes]

Can you honestly say that all your victories were done without reload?

I have all the graphic drivers, but sometimes igfx driver (???) stops working, I get a dump file, which I never analyze -- in short: game crashes sometimes and I pick up from the most recent autosave. Other than that I can safely say that virtually all the games I was posting here have been done without reloads. If something went wrong early in the game I just restart. In the regular game I am not even tempted to reload, plainly stated -- it's not fun, leaves no feeling of honest accomplishment. For this challenge I was naively assuming everyone is afraid of reloading , and was particularly strict about it.

 

[Wessel V1]

I also reload very often, sometimes even 40 times in one Persian UHV game, only to see if the combat results in a victory or not, and when I've seriously screwed the game, to see if I could rescue something. It's suprising how many ways there are to save the game. My Egypt date is perfectly clear from reloading, so it can hold it's position until somebody else tries Egypt.

 

[Virdrago]

I reload, but usually after my mouse goes wonky. It will double click itself sometimes, and that has cost me some bad trades I didn't want. That's what almost all my reloads are.