New civilisation game type concept

[cromcrom]

This concept would be to create your civilisation as the game unfolds, instead of at the start of the game, through the choice of technologies, some of those being randomly put aside when new techs are discovered....

The technologies level would NOT go beyond early gunpowder, but with many more technologies...

I take this idea from the great variety of the civilisations here on earth. Imagine the difference beetween the apaches (nomadic, horse riders, wisdom, nature knowledge) and the aztecs (engineers, no horses, agriculture, blood religion, cities), or the norse (seafarers, steel workers, raiders, polytheism), the franks (feudalism, castle builders, heavy cavalry), the zulus (no horses, highly trained armies, cities, very fast, great courage)...

Right now, all civilisations end up the same. This mod would be about diversity of the civilisations...

So, do you think this could be interesting ? And if not, why ?

 

[John_Deere]

Could you explain this a bit more? From what you said, it appears awfully similiar to the Advanced start in BTS, and plays on the same theme of diversity as Dale's Civ Customizer.

 

[cromcrom]

First of all, thanks for your interest.

this concept would not be about technological progression, but variety. It means that in the end, two civs could NOT be the same, due to the great number of various technologies.

Here is an exemple:
Lets say that there are 6 technologies available for any civilisation at the beginning of the game (there would be MANY more in the final game): forestry, navigation, jewelry, agriculture, hunting and mining.

At the beginning of the game, you decide to research hunting. When you discover hunting, another tech is RANDOMLY discarded, lets say, for example, agriculture. So then your choice would be between forestry, navigation, jewelry and mining. Lets say you research mining. When you discover it, navigation is randomly put aside. Finaly, you can choose between forestry and jewelry. So, when you choose and discover jewelry, forestry is discarded.

So in the end, your civilisation is defined according to these technologies: it is a hunting civilisation, that knows how to mine, and craft wonderful jewels.

But it could have been totally different, thanks to the random discarding of technologies. So you could have a navigation, hunter and forester civilisation, for exemple.

As a result, the choice of techs would be huge at the beginning, and getting smaller and smaller as time passes, to end up with a very unique civilisation.

So the game would be a game of choices and adaptation. Would you go to forestry, or hunting ? And if iron working is discarded, will you be able to go without it ?

The important point here would be to have all techs being even in possibilities. And it is important that any tech would add possibilities to the game. NO uber tech. Iron working could allow you to create swordsmen for example, but these units would be expensive, or maybe nationaly restricted. Some techs could be combined together.

And it would be easy to imagine a fantasy theme to this system. Will you go for navigation allowing you to build basic ships, or try to establish dwarven embassy, allowing you to recruit dwarven units ?

 

[cromcrom]

I AM IN THE PROCESS OF CREATING THE MOD,
THREAD HERE http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=266631

Here are some technologies that would be implemented:
War
Training: DONE
think of any civilisation that would train his warriors on a regular basis, or devising training routine or techniques. You can think of any warlike civilisation , like the spartans, japanese samourais...
Allows the building of barracks. DONE

Thrown weapons: Think of any civilisation that wuould use compact groups of weapons throwers, like the franks "francisques", the zulus throwing spears, or the greeks psiloï. On the contrary, some civilisations would not use thrown weapons, or make very little use of it, like the vikings, mongols....
Would allow the building of harassers

Skirmishing: This tech would be used to represent civilisation having developped a skirmishing kind of warfare, involving very mobile little groups of warriors, think of mounted amerindians, mongols, and opposed to a more static kind of warfare, like legions or phalanxes...
Would allow the skirmisher (+20% withdrawing chance) promotion

Stirrups: This tech was not universally used by all mounted civilisations, (amerindians didn't use them, early european nations neither), but would give quite an efficiency to the nations that would use them (later europeans nations, knights, some barbarians tribes like the Avars, if I remember well....)
Would allow the stirrups (+20% attack to cavalry units) promotion
Would allow cavalry and heavy cavalry(with horse riding and horse ressource)

Scouting: This tech would define a civilisation emphasizing the possibility to create light warriors that would excel in knowing the land
Would allow the scouting (+1 spotting distance) promotion
Would allow the scouts.
DONE

Raiding: This tech would define a civilisation that would be specialized in fast attacks on poorly defended areas, like vikings, mongols....
Would allow the raider (+20% city attack) promotion

Plundering: Would define a civilisation that would take great pride in capturing enemy goods, and would be particularly good at it (vikings, the celts sacking rome in 400BC...)
Would allow the plunderer promotion (units would gain 3 time the gold from destroying improvments)

Ransoming would define a civilisation specialized in capturing enemy leaders or noble alive, and exchanging them for money... (think of the medieval nobles...)
Would allow the ransoming promotion. (Units with this promotion would have a little chance to gain money from defeating an enemy unit)

Pikes:Would define a civilisation making great use of long pikes, think of alexander macedonians sarissas, or scottish schirltons...
Would allow the creation of schirltons and phalanxes (with copper or iron or.....)

Savagery: This civilisation would be able to create particularly savage warriors, think of norse berzerkers, cimmerian from Howards' conan novels...
Would allow the creation of barbarians units, and the frenzy promotion (-10% defense, +20% attack)

Large shields: This civilization would make use of particularly large shields (roman shields, zulu shields, mid european pavoisiers....)
Would allow the creation of impis or legions. Would also permit the large shields promotion (+10% defense, +30% against missile units)

Economy
Lumbering:
Mining: DONE
Butchering: DONE
Taming:
Skinning:
Agriculture: DONE
Irrigation:
Animal Husbandry: DONE
Hunting: DONE
Copper working:
Iron working:
Basic gunpowder:
Engineering:
Navigation:
Shore navigation:
Slavery:
Fresh water fishing: It allows the building of fresh water fisheries, that give +1 food from nearby rivers. This is a little strong in my opinion. I wish it would just give +1 food, whatever the number of rivers tiles there are around.... DONE
Gathering:
Wheel: DONE

Environment
Desert knowledge
Forestry: allows the forest fighter promotion, and the building of a sawmill (basic game effects)DONE
Jungle knowledge
Hills knowledge
Mountain knowledge
Seashore knowledge
Plain knowledge
Tundra knowledge
All the knowledges here would give the appropriate fighting promotion ("desert fighter"), giving a +20% attack and defense in the appropriate terrain.
It would also mostly give a food or health bonus on the appropriate terrain...

Cultural
Jewelry: Big boost to culture, based on the availability of gems, or precious minerals (gold, silver)
Leather crafting:
Mathematics: DONE
Drama:
Alphabet: DONE
Writing: DONE
Litterature:
Education:
Nomadism:
Astronomy:
Astrology:
Circus games:
Mysticism: same as vanilla. DONE

Religions
Blood religion: Think of sacrificial religions (mayans...) giving strength to its warriors...
Love religion: Think of a kind of peaceful religion, promoting culture or "we love the president" kind of events...
War religion:
Awakening religion:
Nature wisdom:

Magic
White magic:
Black magic:
Alchemy:
Elemental magic:
Natural Magic:
Soul magic:
Imbueing:

Racial
Dwarven embassy: This tech would reflect the fact that you discovered a way to ally yourself with some tolkienesque typical dwarves beings. That would allow the building of the national building of dwarven embassy, itself allowing to recruit a limited number of dwarven warriors, and maybe the building of dwarven mines....This tech could open a dwarven list of technologies (dwarven mines, dwarven steel...)
Elven Embassy: Sama as dwarves above, but speaking of elves....

Categories are mentionned here as an exemple, and the list here is not over.

PROMOTIONS
I think there would be 3 basic promotions, not linked to any technologies: "rookie", "trained" and "experienced" (+10% overall each time).
Forest fighter: +20% offense and defense in forests.DONE

WORK IN PROGRESS = DONE
This mod is suited to latest BtS.
** 5 types of basic civilisation: these are done for cosmetic changes only (asian, european, greco-roman, south american, middle eastern)
** Cities renamed as "basic city 1, basic city 2..." so that you would have to rename it to your liking (cromcromopolis sounds great ^^ ;-) )
** All leaders available from start, to choose from, as per the BtS option.
** New unit category = Animals

Any ideas of others techs, and what the technologies could do ?

 

[moopoo]

May I suggest that if you go ahead with this, you don't make it a fantasy based mod. Many other fantasy mods (including the ultimate one, FFH2) have extremely unique civs.

I was thinking about a similar system, except there would be two general lines: civilised and barbarian. Civilized techs would allow a civ to grow but the civ would become weak when it had gotten to a certain size. Barbarian techs would be anit-growth but allow a civ to capitalize on a lumbering civilized civ.

 

[cromcrom]

@moopoo: hmmm, either I don't understand you, or you don't understand my point. In fact, I played a little of FFH2, and there are many quite unique civilisations, but they are defined from the start.

In my mod, you WOULDN'T totally know from the start what your civilisation would be heading to. The point of the game is about unfolding variety of civilisations, and not all the civilisations becoming mostly similar in the end.
Of course, you could choose some technologies, but due to the random discarding of some technologies, no two civilisations would end up being the same.

The fantasy part is just here to increase the possibilities of the game. You could perfectly try to develop a fantasy free civilisation....

 

[moopoo]

I just think this would be much better suited to a non-fantasy realm. I got what you meant.

While fantasy mods are defined from the start, they are nonetheless unique. Despite all the fantastic mods out at the moment, this really isn't something you see in the non-fantasy mods. The closest i've seen is where the situation the civilization starts in or aspires to makes them unique.

Besides that, I imagine this would be quite a large mod to make, with out all the other stuff that goes into a fantasy mod.

Finally, go with what you reckon is best, but i personally would love to see this as a mod for the standard game

 

[Shiggs713]

this is a very interesting idea. I like its concept, but in reality it would be hard to implement it correctly. You literally have months of technology tree work ahead of you. The hardest part would be balancing things out so for example, if Iron Working did get omitted out, it would not be an end all problem. Some techs might even have to do similar things as others, and it would be massively confusing to start.

Good luck,

Shiggs

 

[cromcrom]

Thank you for giving your opinions, I REALLY appreciate your interest in this concept.
@ moopoo:

they are nonetheless unique

indeed, and just trying to explore all the possibilities is already a great fun. As for the fantasy part, it indeed is a matter of personnal taste, and I do think that in the end, the mod will definitely propose fantasy technologies. But I do think that I will first create a basic test mod, with a few basic "historical" techs, to see how it works...

@Shiggs713: you put your finger where it hurts ;-)

months of technology tree work ahead of you

Quite. And indeed. So I might go and create a basic mod, just to see how it unfolds, with a few techs, and expand from that....

The hardest part would be balancing things out so for example, if Iron Working did get omitted out, it would not be an end all problem

Definitely. This is why I think it will be fun and interesting to balance techs. Maybe the benefits of iron working would be expensive (expensive and few units, much longer to build, maintain....). And also, someone going to an all out warlike civ may not have the economical or cultural power to win the game...

Some techs might even have to do similar things as others, and it would be massively confusing to start.

OUCH !!!! well, this is right. Some technologies could have the same effects, although I would really rather not, and eventually, the sheer number of techs to choose from at the beginning of the game could be quite compelling....

This is why I do think that I will create a "test" mod, with a few technologies (around 20, arbitrarily), and all the main features of the game...

"A civilisation to stand the test of time"...Many great civilisations might have disappeared, evolved, but left wonders still amazing in our eyes (egyptians and pyramids, amerindians wisdom and natural religion, mongols vast conquest, viking travels....)

The amazing richness of the world civilisations is the goal of this mod, as is the possibility to have the feeling to really create your civilisation...

 

[johny smith]

I was thinking about a similar idea before, but the choices I was thinking would be made through events. That way you don't have all of these techs in the tree, and possibly giving even more choices. I was thinking not by a unit fighting style or anything. I was just thinking what choices you make while ruling your people, and this lets you select your traits, UU's, and UB's.

 

[Shiggs713]

sorry I didn't mean to discourage you at all. If you have some modding experience it may not be all that bad. Yea, it'll probably be best to start with something moddest and continue to build it up.

If you have warlords, you can un-install it, re-install, then download and install patch 2.08 (its the only way to patch back down to 2.08), and use TheLopez's tech tree editor. It is very handy. There might be newer, better versions by someone else, but I haven't looked.

I'd recommend only using that to form the shape of your tree, its easier to lay things out when you can visualize it on your screen, and move around to your liking. Most of the coded stuff, I change using notepad++. For example, the tech tree editor will start all techs for advisor_military and era_ancient. I leave them all as they are, then go in and use the find/replace function in notepad++, and I can change all those to my liking much quicker. This is especially useful if your adding many techs of the same category or era.

Finally, (if using TheLopez's tech tree mod for warlords 2.08) the only thing you'll have to do to make the new tech tree compatible with BtS is add 3 new tag lines, to each tech.

<TechInfo>
			<Type>TECH_MYSTICISM</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_TECH_MYSTICISM</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_TECH_MYSTICISM_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<Help/>
			<Strategy>TXT_KEY_TECH_MYSTICISM_STRATEGY</Strategy>
			<Advisor>ADVISOR_RELIGION</Advisor>
			<iAIWeight>0</iAIWeight>
			<iAITradeModifier>0</iAITradeModifier>
			<iCost>50</iCost>
			[B]<iAdvancedStartCost>100</iAdvancedStartCost>
			<iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>0</iAdvancedStartCostIncrease>[/B]
			<Era>ERA_ANCIENT</Era>
			<FirstFreeUnitClass>NONE</FirstFreeUnitClass>
			<iFeatureProductionModifier>0</iFeatureProductionModifier>
			<iWorkerSpeedModifier>0</iWorkerSpeedModifier>
			<iTradeRoutes>0</iTradeRoutes>
			<iHealth>0</iHealth>
			<iHappiness>0</iHappiness>
			<iFirstFreeTechs>0</iFirstFreeTechs>
			<iAsset>8</iAsset>
			<iPower>0</iPower>
			<bRepeat>0</bRepeat>
			<bTrade>1</bTrade>
			<bDisable>0</bDisable>
			<bGoodyTech>1</bGoodyTech>
			<bExtraWaterSeeFrom>0</bExtraWaterSeeFrom>
			<bMapCentering>0</bMapCentering>
			<bMapVisible>0</bMapVisible>
			<bMapTrading>0</bMapTrading>
			<bTechTrading>0</bTechTrading>
			<bGoldTrading>0</bGoldTrading>
			<bOpenBordersTrading>0</bOpenBordersTrading>
			<bDefensivePactTrading>0</bDefensivePactTrading>
			<bPermanentAllianceTrading>0</bPermanentAllianceTrading>
			<bVassalTrading>0</bVassalTrading>
			<bBridgeBuilding>0</bBridgeBuilding>
			<bIrrigation>0</bIrrigation>
			<bIgnoreIrrigation>0</bIgnoreIrrigation>
			<bWaterWork>0</bWaterWork>
			<iGridX>1</iGridX>
			<iGridY>11</iGridY>
			<DomainExtraMoves/>
			<CommerceFlexible/>
			<TerrainTrades/>
			[B]<bRiverTrade>0</bRiverTrade>[/B]
			<Flavors>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_RELIGION</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>9</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GOLD</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>1</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_CULTURE</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>8</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
				<Flavor>
					<FlavorType>FLAVOR_GROWTH</FlavorType>
					<iFlavor>2</iFlavor>
				</Flavor>
			</Flavors>
			<OrPreReqs/>
			<AndPreReqs/>
			<Quote>TXT_KEY_TECH_MYSTICISM_QUOTE</Quote>
			<Sound>AS2D_TECH_MYSTICISM</Sound>
			<SoundMP>AS2D_TECH_MP_MYSTICISM</SoundMP>
			<Button>,Art/Interface/Buttons/TechTree/Mysticism.dds,Art/Interface/Buttons/TechTree_Atlas.dds,4,11</Button>
		</TechInfo>

Just those 3 bolded tag lines. All the techs in vanilla BtS have the same exact lines in all those categories, except sailing. It has bRiverTrade as 1.

You'll get a crapload of XML errors if you just do that and put it in a mod and load it up (If you removed some techs that previously existed). You'll need to also slightly edit the following files (maybe forgetting a couple) if you do that: EventInfos.xml, EventTriggers.xml, BuildingInfos.xml, UnitInfos.xml, CIV4CivicInfos.xml, CIV4Religioninfos.xml, bonusInfos.xml, improvementinfos.xml, and maybe buildinfos.xml, PromotionInfos.xml

Its not as hard as it looks. Just use notepad++ and use the find/replace, cut/paste methods. All you have to do is look for entries that connect to technologies that you removed. So you could goto "find" and search for "TECH_" and that will find you all references to any technologies. Then you just have to carefully omit entries to techs that do not exist anymore. For example if you removed combustion, you need to edit the improvement "Well", to not require "TECH_COMBUSTION" anymore. Those should either be changed to a new tech or set to "NONE", at least until you know exactly what you want it to do.

Sometimes I won't fix any of that stuff up, and just let it have a crapload of XML errors, and sit and write them all down with pencil and paper, then go back and find and fix them all.

dont' forget to never edit your original files. Make copies of the files you need and place them in a mod folder (BeyondtheSword/Mods/YOURMOD) and in the exact same folder structure.

hopefully that helps,

Shiggs

 

[cromcrom]

@johny smith: this sounds really good, I didn't think of that. But considering my programming level, I rather go at first with all the XML stuff, that is, according to me, quite simple to do. As a matter of fact, I didn't put my nose in the events stuff, but might later...

@Shiggs713
Thanks for the detailed advices. I already use notepad++, and my concern is definitely not with the XML or simple Art part of the mod (buttons, civopedia, units...), but much more with a few python or sdk effects I think would be necessary to keep the mod valid.
For exemple, the discarding of random techs as you discover new ones, or the increase of tech costs as the game developp.

 

[Shiggs713]

Yea that would be the tricky part, but modding the tech tree a bunch can be a lot of work anyhow. I suppose a python person could do the special effects easily. I'm gonna be forced to learn python here sometime soon, so if you don't figure it out by then, I could lend a hand.

Shiggs

 

[cromcrom]

Same "have to learn python" here , so good luck, Shiggs713

 

[cromcrom]

Here is a very basic build of the mod. I need a python or sdk programmer to be able to keep going.

The task would be simple:
To make it that when a tech is discovered, another one is randomly disabled...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8722

 

[TheLastOne36]

So basically if Agriculture is Discarded, you won't be able to make any farms throughout the entire game?

 

[cromcrom]

You kind of get the idea, right. You would have to find other ways to grow or harvest or raise food, and there will be some, like fishing, butchering, plant gathering, herding....
Think of all the nomadic or pastoral civilisations that developped without agriculture, or a very limited one: amerindians, vikings, aborigenes, masaïs, mongols.....

IF you don't choose any food gathering technology, then you will have other assets, although your cities probably won't grow fast.

Furthermore, technology trading is possible with other civs.....

 

[ppease]

Hi, I like your ideas and would like to see how it works in game play. I am not a moder and thus no help to you.



In thinking of playing the prehistory man - a nomad who does not start out founding a village; but travels the country and when encountering a cave the idea of permanent shelter may arise, or if encountering a food crop the idea of a permanent shelter again may arise, encountering a source of fresh water may again foster the idea of a permanent shelter, and if by chance one should encounter a place where water and food crop are close then the idea of settling down is even greater possibility. Until the idea of a permanent shelter hits you in an "a ha!" moment you will not have the option to settle down and build a village. Once you have built a village the idea of some type of shelter is in the back of your mind.

If wild animals come into your area then the idea of using their skins for protection from the environment is a possible idea and is enhanced if you kill that animal. If you are in a cold climate the idea of using animal skins is greatly enhanced. If you encounter another human who is clothed in animal skins then your discovery of clothing is almost certain to happen immediately if you are in a cold climate (if in a warm climate then not so much will you consider clothing). If you have entered forest areas the idea of taking some branches to make a frame over which you can stretch animal skins to provide shelter may come to you (eventually). The better the shelter you have the more population can increase.

Similarly, it is only when encountering wild animals or a barbarian that you begin to have an reason to think about the possibility of better weapons. If your environment is plains or grassland or desert then only your fists are weapons; when you venture into forests or jungle then the idea making a spear may come to you (and if you encounter a barbarian or animal when in the forest then the idea of a spear is enhanced). If you are traveling in hills you may get the idea of using stones as weapons (not just throwing them but a club with a stone head attached to give an enhanced club). An idea of a wooden spear together with the idea of using stones may lead to the idea of enhanced spears.

If you are close to a jungle the the idea of medicinal plants is enhanced and if that idea comes into consciousness then a shaman/witchdoctor healer can be employed and that will increase you populations survival rate.

Anyway you see where I am coming from and that is your environment is what gives you an idea that may come immediately or may take awhile before you your subconscious brain gets the conscious idea that allows you to actually utilize that idea.

 

[johny smith]

Well I just wanted to add if you are going to redo the agriculture then you might want to think about adding more resources.

Well first of all animal domestication came before plant domestication, and both of plants and animals were not just domesticated instantly. I would like to see stages of domestication. I know you can make farms and pastures act like cottages, but I am not trying to take you off the subject.

 

[cromcrom]

@ppease:
Firstly, thanks for your interest.

What you describe sounds a bit complicated to ME, and sounds like RPG-TBS. That sounds great anyway, but it is totally beyonf my modding abilities, sorry.

Anyway you see where I am coming from and that is your environment is what gives you an idea that may come immediately or may take awhile before you your subconscious brain gets the conscious idea that allows you to actually utilize that idea.

In my mod, all technologies are available from start. So you can choose you technology according to you environnement. The search time may represent the take awhile of the subconscious to become conscious.

Beside, you can get technologies through discovery (goodies huts) and sharing with aother civilisations, that would represent the "instant" discovery...

@johny smith:
the point in my mod is that all technologies are available from start, so there won't be any "stages". But it definitely take more than one tech to achieve a complete status. For example, for now, the following things deal with plants and agriculture in my mod:

Herb eating: will reveal corn, rice, wheat and bananas. + new button art.
Utilitarian herbs: reveals Incense, dye. + new button art.
Special food: reveals spice, sugar. + new button art.
Winery: reveals wine. allows the winery imprvement. + new button art.
Agriculture: allows to build farms.
Forestry: allows forest fighters promotion (+20% attack and defense in forests), and lumbermill building.

and the following deals with the use of animals:

Hunting: allows the hunting promotion (+30% against animals, +15% against mounted), the hunter unit, and allow the hunter to build camp.
Animal husbandry: Workers can build pasture, reveals horse.
Butchery: allows hunters and workers to build butchering camp improvement (food bonus on animals). Also allows the butchery building (+1 health), and gives +1 food on pastures.

So mastering a subject will take more than one take, and thus sacrificing other technological domains...

Well first of all animal domestication came before plant domestication

Indeed, but then some civilisations were defined by their unique use of animals (pastoral civilisations, like masaïs, touaregs), some only through their use of plants (incas, some amazonian tribes), and most through both...

So I will go in details of these things, but maybe not the way you would like, sorry