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new civilization: Bulgaria

Discussion in 'Civ4 - New Civilizations' started by CivArmy s. 1994, Jan 7, 2006.

  1. svetg

    svetg Chieftain

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    Exactly my point. :)

    Who told you that the Albanians and Illiryans are the same people?


    Man, it's hard to argue with a fanatic. I never said that Ohrid was not for some time Illiryan or Roman or Macedonian or... whatever city. I just said that for 500 years it was one of the greatest Bulgarian cities and deserved to be on the list of Bulgarian Civilization cities.
     
  2. deo

    deo Chieftain

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  3. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    What does your point prove? The time a present-day state was recognized by the international community and the start of a civilization are two completely different things. Your comments were utterly ignorant and disrespectful. The present-day internationally recognized Albanian state is roughly a century old but the Albanian civilization is over 3 milleniums old.

    Our people don't call ourselves "Albanians" or "Illyrians." Both names for us actually came from the Greeks. We call ourselves something entirely different. Our civilization has remained in the same area for more than 3000 years (some say 5000 and others more). The Albanians still follow the traditions of their Illyrian ancestors, are still situated in land that during ancient times was the domain of the Illyrians, still speak an Illyrian language (although it was impregnated with many words, such as slavic from the Bulgarians, latin from the Romans and the Venetians, Greek, and Turkish from the Ottoman occupation), we still name our children Illyrian names, and our capital has been Shkodra from Illyrian times up until the 20th century.

    Before the creation of the present day state, Albanian land was under the Ottoman empire for roughly 5 centuries. Including the Bulgarian occupation, since Illyrian times, my people have survived 33 invasions.

    I understand that Ohrid was a city of the Bulgarian empire, even it's capital... but before the Bulgarians conquered it, what was it? And after the end of the large Bulgarian empire, what was it? And today, what is it?

    Such a city is fine to include in a scenario of the might of the Bulgarian empire, because one cannot deny that it was the capital at one point, but to release it as a natural city of Bulgaria is misleading.
     
  4. deo

    deo Chieftain

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    There are many evidences that i can mentoin but the strongest one is the language, it's simply too similar to our's.
     
  5. svetg

    svetg Chieftain

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    Deo, who mentioned Skopje before? And I'm not reading any historical document placed in the .mk domain zone. For some reason the "history" listed in this domain is completely different from the rest of the world.
     
  6. deo

    deo Chieftain

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    Ops! Sorry:blush: I was reffering to another forum about some claming skopje was never albanian. I posted and thought i posted it in that forum, now i realize my error.

    Anyway, Oher (Ohrid) was the capital of the enkelens (however they are called in english). They were the first Organized Illyrian tribe that later became part of illyria. I don't remember, i have to look in my history book but i think it was around 500 Bc.
     
  7. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    That's not the issue now Deo, he is saying Ohrid was a major center of the Bulgarian empire, and for 25 years it was the Bulgarian capital.
     
  8. svetg

    svetg Chieftain

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    Deo, just read this so we can talk

    Shqype, you are not right. Every civilization starts when it's recognized by the international community. Until then it's just a bunch of tribes. For example the Bulgarian civilization was founded at 681 AD. Do you know why I know the exact date? Because at this date the Bulgarian Kingdom was officially recognized by the Byzantium Empire as independent kingdom. Until then it was just a bunch of Slavic, Bulgarian, Thracian, Dacian, Greek even Illyrian tribes.

    The Gypsy people survived even longer, but they are not a civilization. Why? Because they were not organized enough to make their own state recognized by other countries.

    I know, you're calling yourselves eagles, don't be shy :crazyeye:

    What I wanted to prove! Again, repeat after me: "Ohrid is not a Bulgarian city, but it WAS one of the greatest Bulgarian cities ever"
    So it have it's place in 1300+ years (recognized by the international community) Bulgarian history

    Which one? I don't want to be rude or ignorant. I'm posting facts only. If you don't like them, prove your point!

    What do you say about this.

    You can say this for every city in Europe survived more than 2000 years.
    How about Athens by example. It's greek now, it was Ottoman's before, Byzantium before that, Roman....which city is this? Does this city deserve to be in the list of Greek civilization's cities?
     
  9. deo

    deo Chieftain

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    Look at my attached image.

    So, the egyptian civilization started when it was recognized by... Who? Same goes to Sumeria that are the first Civ etc. So you can't say albanians are a civ since 1912. You even can't realy say what makes a country a civ ( for example USA, is it a civ or not?, some say yes, some no etc.)

    I call albania, shqiperi, and shqiperi means LAND of the Eagles, not just eagles.
    And we call ourselves, just like Americans call themeselves American and Germans call themselves German and you call us Albanian, but just in our language.

    I have nothing to say to the other coments because i don't disaggre.
     

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  10. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    Athens is Greek because of its Greek origin, the Greek ethnicity of its people, and even today is still part of the Greek state with ethnically Greek inhabitants. Any entities that conquered Athens for a brief period of time have no claims to it (like saying that France is really German because Hitler conquered it and brought it under his empire; Germany has no legitimate claims to that French country).

    That is completely false.

    Plus, as I said earlier, there were various Illyrian kingdoms, including the kingdom based in Shkodra with King Agron (and after his death, Queen Teuta) as the head of the empire. Albanian kingdoms again rose later, the kingdom of Arbnia, or Arberia (southern dialect). During Kastrioti's time we were called Arbnor (Arberesh)... even the southern Albanian troops that migrated to Italy and settled in Calabria still speak an archaic form of the Albanian language, and call themselves Arberesh, not "Shqyptar" as we call ourselves today, because the term Shqyptar came about after Kastrioti's rebellion.

    As I stated before many of our kingdoms were destroyed by the 33 invasions we have survived since Illyrian times.

    I stress again there is a huge difference between a civilization and an internationally recognized state of the present-day.
     
  11. svetg

    svetg Chieftain

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    Shqype, Deo,

    Don't forget, this is the "New Civilization: Bulgaria" thread. Don't start your albanian nationalism here. If you have something to say about this mod, say it. If not, practice your nationalism somewhere else.

    btw, I would like to continue this discussion if you find a proper place. ;)
     
  12. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    This is not about nationalism but facts. Civilization and present-day states are 2 completely different things, something which is very relevant.

    I would like for CivArmy to post a complete city list when he gets the chance.
     
  13. Talon500

    Talon500 Chieftain

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    WOAH WOAH WOAH............... isnt Bulgaria a monarchy state?
     
  14. Anima Croatorum

    Anima Croatorum Chieftain

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    Bulgaria is a republic, its just that the former King is PM.

    About Illyrians and Albanians.

    First, there was no unified Illyrian conciousness, they were dozens of tribes between the Alps and Thrace that had some mutual cultural similarities, but were also loosely related to Celts, Thracians and Macedonians.

    Second, most of these tribes Romanised and Latinized fully, and by the time of the later centuries of Roman Empire held were fully integrated into Roman society.

    Third, those that chose to live outside of Roman society, deep within the mountain ranges of todays Albania later became Albanian. To claim that Illyrian became Albanian would be incorrect. 5% tops of total Illyricum could be considered the forefathers of modern Albania. The few secluded tribes that did not Romanise.

    In the time of late Empire and after the fall of Rome, incursions of Huns, Avars and arrival of the Slavs, Illyric name was long dead. Former Illyrians that survived the first two were not Albanian, but Romance. Dalmatians(assimilated by Croats in 11.ct.), North Vlach(future Romanians in Wallachia) and South Vlach(originally from Macedonia, and Bulgaria, later relocated by the Ottomans to western Bosnia and Croatia along the military border and finally assimilated into Serbs by Serb Orthodox Church).
     
  15. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    Anima Croatorum, there were Illyrian kingdoms that rose under Bardhylli, Teuta, Genti, etc..

    The Southern Illyrians averted assimilation, by not only Greeks and Romans, but by the invaders that shrunk their borders (slavs). The northern Illyrians were mostly assimilated as you say, but the ones that did remain eventually became known as the Albanians (after one of the Illyrian tribes in the heart of present-day Albania).

    Our ancestors were part of a much larger group, but with time (and each armed invasion, 33 of them) their domain got smaller and smaller.

    Now how about that Bulgarian city list?...
     
  16. deo

    deo Chieftain

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    Ah so? Nationalistic:mischief:. That's not nationalism, that is a fact that connects us with the illyrians. Anyway, im not gonna debate anymore since there no point to debate.

    About the Mod, the UU is still overpowerd.

    Edit: You wan't nationalism, see Here
    Go to the last few pages, that guy is insane.
     
  17. BG_Zero

    BG_Zero Chieftain

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    One thing,how can you have a civilization with no leades or a state?You "civilization" exist only for less than a century.:crazyeye:Was there ever a ancian or a medivial Albanian state?
     
  18. von Tirpitz

    von Tirpitz Chieftain

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    @svetg Seems like some albanian here tends to write up his own little history. Even though you made things clear by proofs and real good explainations he does not want to accept reality. In another thread he denies the well-known fact that armenians were the first civilization to adopt christianity somewhat 300 AD. Now guess whose ancestors had also already adopted christianity by that time? Exactly ;)


    Anyway, I am sad about the factory-like producing of new civs. They should be something unique and special..
     
  19. deo

    deo Chieftain

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    Why are you asking this anyway? Cause you think there wasnt an Albanian state in the middle ages?

    And why the f*ck you needed to start this all over again?
     
  20. BG_Zero

    BG_Zero Chieftain

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    So was there a medieval albanian state?:rolleyes:
     

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