New Civilization: Thailand - Version 1.1

[Perseid]

I've uploaded what will probably be the finished version of my Thailand mod, complete with Pratputajao's pedia entry(Thanks!). Any input is appreciated.

Two new pics attached. Other two pics in here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=154779

60 Cities

Leaders
-------
Ramkhamhaeng (Spiritual/Aggressive)
Mongkut (Creative/Philosophical)
Chulalongkorn (Organized/Financial)
Adulyadej (Creative/Spiritual)

Civs
----
Mysticism
Agricultire

Unit
----
Battle Elephant (9/2)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads11/Thailand1.1.zip

 

[Pratputajao]

Great job!!

We need more Asian Civs, there is an awful lot of history there. If I were a better modder ( Not so good at the graphics end) I would add Burma, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malay kingdoms, Tibet, The Shan states... There really is alot to be done in this region.

Anyway, Great job again. Keep up the good work!!

 

[Ick of the East]

Mongkut (Creative/Philosophical)
Thais don't call him this. They most comonly use Rama IV.

Adulyadej (Creative/Spiritual)
This won't do. It should either be Pumipol or Rama IX.

Glad you've done it though. Although I would prefer to call them the Siamese. Much more poetic and historic. It's only been called Thailand since 1932.

*****And either I'm doing something wrong, or your ZIP files are empty.

Could you post a list of your cities for me to check?

 

[Pratputajao]

You are right, but unless you are Thai I dont think it matters. Just as Ayuthaya and Sukhothai should be the starting Cities but they were destroyed so most people who are not Thai have not heard of them. So ether way i think its good. But to be completely accurate you are right.

 

[Pratputajao]

Oh, are you Kon Thai? I see you are in BKK, Ick

 

[Ick of the East]

Oh, are you Kon Thai? I see you are in BKK, Ick

No, I'm Farang, but my wife is Thai. I've been here 22 years.

I think Sukhothai, Sisatchanali, Sri Ayuthaya, Chiang Mai should be the first cities. You don't have to worry about if people have heard of them or not. Civilization can be an educational tool as well as a game!

It doesn't make any sense to start with Bangkok in ancient times. Egypt doesn't start with Cairo does it? Japan doesn't start with Tokyo.

 

[Spearthrower]

Cool! I am downloading it now! **Edit: Actually, I'm not as there seems to be an error with it**

Hey let's change Bangkok to:

KrungthepmahahnahkhonBorwornrhattanagosinMahhintarayutayahMahhahdelokPopNopparatlachathaneebureeromUdomratchaneewetmahhahsathanAmornpeemarnawatdahnsattitsakatatdeeyatwisanutgrambrasit.

Ok, lets not! Can you imagine that on the screen?

Seriously though, I agree with using historical names such as Sukhothai and Sri Ayuthaya and chosing one of those as the starting city.

I personally would prefer using Thailand as the civ name as it follows suit with the rest of the game i.e. modern, anglicised names.

As for spelling, I think as long as it is consistent, it's fine!

 

[Ick of the East]

I personally would prefer using Thailand as the civ name as it follows suit with the rest of the game i.e. modern, anglicised names.

But everybody knows Siam as well. And it sounds so much nicer!

And here's the old Siamese flag:


Looks so much more interesting than the modern flag, I think.

And did anybody have problems with the ZIP file besides me? Mine is empty!

 

[Perseid]

As for Rama, I'd rather not use titles. The rest of the game doesn't do this, and many more potential players will recognize the name Mongkut before they'd recognize Rama. And the full name I used in the mod is Bhumibol Adulyadej. I assume Pumipol is a different way of anglicizing the same name.

I was debating using Siam, but, as Spearthrower said, the game does seem to lean toward using modern names and flags, though that older flag IS pretty cool.

And you're right. Starting with Bangkok doesn't make sense but I didn't know what the first cities were, not being Thai myself. If Sukhothai, Sisatchanali, Ayuthaya, and Chiang Mai are all ancient cities, I will indeed put them to the top.

Lastly, the file I uploaded looks okay on my machine, but I can't test it because the download server isn't responding right now. I'll check later,

 

[Ick of the East]

As for Rama, I'd rather not use titles. The rest of the game doesn't do this, and many more potential players will recognize the name Mongkut before they'd recognize Rama. And the full name I used in the mod is Bhumibol Adulyadej. I assume Pumipol is a different way of anglicizing the same name.

The Bhumibol spelling is probably more common. Go with that. (It's pronounced Poomepone)
And Mongkut is probably OK, since he is so famous from The King and I, even though the title is not really correct.

I was debating using Siam, but, as Spearthrower said, the game does seem to lean toward using modern names and flags, though that older flag IS pretty cool.

The game does use the "Persians" rather than the "Iranians". And, although not quite the same, the game uses the "English" rather than today's "British" and the "Romans" rather than the modern "Italians".
"Thailand" did not build Sukhothai or use elephants in battle. But the "Siamese" did.

And you're right. Starting with Bangkok doesn't make sense but I didn't know what the first cities were, not being Thai myself. If Sukhothai, Sisatchanali, Ayuthaya, and Chiang Mai are all ancient cities, I will indeed put them to the top.

Cool. Could you post your city list? I'll be able to help you rank them in a good order. And double-check the spellings.

 

[Ick of the East]

Lastly, the file I uploaded looks okay on my machine, but I can't test it because the download server isn't responding right now. I'll check later,

It's working now.

 

[Spearthrower]

The Bhumibol spelling is probably more common. Go with that. (It's pronounced Poomepone)
And Mongkut is probably OK, since he is so famous from The King and I, even though the title is not really correct.

I think Bhumibol is the best spelling, but as I said before, consistency is far more appealing. In all honesty, I think a lot of Thais would find it highly disrespectful using Bhumibol or Chulalongkorn in a computer game as they are practically deified.

The game does use the "Persians" rather than the "Iranians". And, although not quite the same, the game uses the "English" rather than today's "British" and the "Romans" rather than the modern "Italians". "Thailand" did not build Sukhothai or use elephants in battle. But the "Siamese" did.

This first is the perfect example: the Persians *always* called their country Iran... in fact it was first called Persia by the Greeks after the hero Persis. Iran actually accepted the dual use of Persia/Iran only a hundred or so years ago. Thus it is an anglicised name.

The Romans were not Italians and Italy didnt even exist then, it was a bunch of city states and the people of the south, middle, north east and north west were considerably different. The historical timing isn't important, it's the anglicization of the name.

The use of English is correct as it was an individual country - the point is that we don't call it Angleland.

We dont call the Greeks the Hellenes, the French the Gauls (or Franks), the Egyptians the Khemeians.... we use their modernised name.

Historically they all work, as I said, they are ALL the modernized, anglicised versions of their names.... they are not in their own, original language. Thus, Thailand would fit better into the game imo.

 

[Ick of the East]

I think Bhumibol is the best spelling, but as I said before, consistency is far more appealing. In all honesty, I think a lot of Thais would find it highly disrespectful using Bhumibol or Chulalongkorn in a computer game as they are practically deified.

I agree that Bhumibol would not be well received. But Chulalongkorn should be OK. After all, there is Chulalongkorn University. But for Thais, Rama V and Rama IX would be best, although for everybody else those titles are a bit cold.

How about a woman, Suriyothai? That would be great. There are plenty of pictures from the movie available.

This first is the perfect example: the Persians *always* called their country Iran... in fact it was first called Persia by the Greeks after the hero Persis. Iran actually accepted the dual use of Persia/Iran only a hundred or so years ago. Thus it is an anglicised name.

Right, but Persia is an ancient name as well, even if the Iranians did not use it themselves.

I'm not arguing that we should use Siam just because the Siamese used it. I'm arguing that we should because everybody used it until very recently.

(And Siam is also an anglicization - from "Sayaam Prathet".)

We dont call the Greeks the Hellenes, the French the Gauls (or Franks), the Egyptians the Khemeians.... we use their modernised name.

Greece and Egypt are also ancient names that foreigners gave to those places, so they go very well with the ancient eras of the game. It is the age of the name that is important to me, not whether it is locally authentic or not.

But Thailand only dates to 1932 and so sounds really out of place to me when playing in ancient times (which is most of the game).

Historically they all work, as I said, they are ALL the modernized, anglicised versions of their names.... they are not in their own, original language. Thus, Thailand would fit better into the game imo.

I would agree 100 percent if "Siam" was as unknown to most people as Hellas or Bharat (India) or Kart Hadasht (Carthage).
But everybody knows Siam.
================================================================
Here are 30 towns in rough order of settlement. I've left out some ancient towns that were settled by the Khmer and later conquered by the Siamese.

(Note: Although Bangkok is more properly called Krung Thep, the original settlement was named Bangkok and only changed when the capital moved there. So I've left it as Bangkok. If you move your capital there, you can change it yourself !)

<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SUKHOTHAI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SI_SATCHANALAI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHIANG_RAI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHIANG MAI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SUPHAN_BURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SRI_AYUTTHAYA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHITSANULOK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NAKHON_PATHOM</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LAMPANG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NAKHON_RATCHASIMA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LOP_BURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BANGKOK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_UTTARADIT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KHON_KAEN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BURI_RAM</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHETCHABURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KANCHANABURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SARABURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHON_BUIR</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHANTABURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NAKHON_SRI_TAMMARAT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHATTALUNG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SONGKHLA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHUMPON</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NARATIWAT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SURAT_THANI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHUKET</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RANONG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SATUN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_YALA</City>

 

[Spearthrower]

2 typos:

<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHON_BUIR</City>

Chonburi

<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NARATIWAT</City>

Narathiwat


I think quite a few of them you could leave out the space too - like Chonburi, Lopburi, Suphanburi..... just for consistency purposes.

Add
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TRAT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TRANG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KRABI</City>

 

[Pratputajao]

" but as I said before, consistency is far more appealing. In all honesty, I think a lot of Thais would find it highly disrespectful using Bhumibol or Chulalongkorn in a computer game as they are practically deified."

Point well taken and I agree that alot of Thais would find the using of names disrespectful. But then you have people like my wife.... she thinks games are all a waste of time anyway.. hehe

I like the Idea of having Suryiothai as a leader. A very strong woman, a national hero, and an inspiration to many Thais. Pretty cool movie too..

Yeah I noticed while playing the game today the listing of the cities. I was going to post my list when I got back to my work computer ( Online conection at home is a mess) But after seeing Ick's list its not necissary, I only differed in I had Ayuthaya as The starting city but to be historically accurate Ick's choice of Sukhothai is more correct. I would leave Pattaya off the list alltogether as it wasnt even really a city until the 60s, just a fishing villiage before that.

 

[Ick of the East]

Good catch. Thanks.
I've put all of the "buri" downs as one word and corrected the spelling.

<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SUKHOTHAI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SI_SATCHANALAI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHIANG_RAI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHIANG_MAI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SUPHANBURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SRI_AYUTTHAYA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHITSANULOK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NAKHON_PATHOM</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LAMPANG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NAKHON_RATCHASIMA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LOPBURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BANGKOK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_UTTARADIT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KHON_KAEN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BURIRAM</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHETCHABURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KANCHANABURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SARABURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHONBURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHANTABURI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TRAT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NAKHON_SRI_TAMMARAT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHATTALUNG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SONGKHLA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHUMPON</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NARATHIWAT</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SURATTHANI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHUKET</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_RANONG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SATUN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_YALA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TRANG</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KRABI</City>

 

[Spearthrower]

The only other comment I have on this (excellent) list of cities is perhaps to reorder them. In a standard game, how many cities do you settle yourself? 8? 10? 15? Perhaps put them in order of importance to some degree - i.e. Major cities first.

 

[Spearthrower]

Point well taken and I agree that alot of Thais would find the using of names disrespectful. But then you have people like my wife.... she thinks games are all a waste of time anyway.. hehe

Yeah, I just want to ensure we dont cause any offence to Thai members! I think most King's names would be fine except Bhumibol or Chulalongkorn as both are seen to be more than just men. It's one thing to name a University, Hospital or other good work after them and completely another thing to put them in a computer game. It's a shame because they do both make excellent leaders!

I am hoping that running this civ will pull my girlfriend's interest into Civ. She did find the little Buddhist monks running about and converting everyone quite appealing!

 

[Ick of the East]

The problem with ordering the cities by what is major today is that you'll start off with Bangkok, Chiang Mai, Hat Yai, etc.

But Hat Yai was a nothing until 40 years ago. Same for Pattaya.

And the Siamese started out in the north and gradually moved south. So I've tried to reflect that (for what it's worth).

But then I'm just a pedantic history buff, so don't mind me

 

[Spearthrower]

Yeah I didnt actually mean in order of importance today.... more in overall order of importance. I definitely think Bangkok deserves to be higher up the list as it is number 12 at the moment.... in my games that will probably relegate it to a fishing village at most. I tend to build few cities and take the rest off the AI. Somewhere like Chiang Rai could go way down the list in my opinion. I still advocate some shuffling about! It's not a concern for me as I will just reorder them on my pc, I just wanted to help strengthen the experience for others!