New civs for RFCE 1.2

[AbsintheRed]

As I said I'm willing to add some new civs to the current version of RFCE
Here is a poll from the potential civs, anything else is out of the question. Not enough place for them on this map IMO

You can vote on as many civs you want, but from the 10 civs I will only add the 4-5 most popular ones - at least for now
Some of the rest may also make it, depends on the performance of the mod after these new civs are in.
Note that some civs are deeply connected gameplay-wise, so I might have to slightly modify the outcome under certain circumstances
For example: Aragon - Sicily, Teutonic Order - Novgorod, etc.

 

[Opera]

I voted for Prussia, Morocco, Aragon and Denmark/Norway.

Morocco is much needed because the region is very empty. While this may mean free reign for Morocco, I think if Aragon makes it, they'll enough to deal with: Portugal, Spain, Aragon, maybe France. I'd say they'd spawn only if Cordoba is unstable or has lost Cordoba and is still alive.

Prussia is a necessary counterbalance to Germany IMO.

Aragon is also a necessary counterbalance, this time to Spain, as Burgundy is to France. Portugal really isn't one to Spain though.

Denmark/Norway. I regret a bit voting for it. It's related to what I said about Norse, it isn't enough like Denmark-Norway and is too much Viking. If this is fixed then I don't think Norway's needed and instead Norse can act as both.

I didn't vote for the others for priorities. I'd still want to see them all in. I think they could all bring something to the game

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Novgorod & Prussia means awesome Prokofiev soundtrack.


Link to video.

One of the great joys of playing RFCE++ IMO.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Come to think of it, the effect of Crimea on the Ottomans & Moscovy can be represented by a combination of Barbs and Mercenaries. So while Crimea is fun to play on its own, it is not as essential to the whole game as Morocco and Aragon are.

Specifically, we can just add the Crimean UU (Chambul) from RFCE++ as a Mercenary available in the Crimea (and possibly Kuban) province. Some of it will also spawn as Barbs and target Russian cities.

Additionally, the effect of Topkapi Palace can be changed to allow the building of Mercenary units. In RFCE++ the Ottomans can build the Tunesian & Crimean UUs (both very good units) via Topkapi Palace, which makes the Wonder a lot more fun and historical than it is in RFCE.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Scotland also has a new voice set (in Lowland Scots) provided by a friend of mine.

He's a body builder who competed for Mr. Scotland. Needless to say his voice is very Scottish and very manly.

 

[Royal Tenenbaum]

Aragon is essential. It's like Spain, but going in the other direction and taking land that needs to be taken. It's like a duel, with each country taking 10 steps then turning around to shoot eachother.
However, I must add that either an Albanian or a Serbian country is needed more than Novorod.

 

[merijn_v1]

I voted for:

Novgorod - A huge part of the map would be unoccupied until Moscow spawn. Which is a waste of the map.
(This somewhat forces us to also include the Teutonic Order/Prussia and an earlier Sweden to make it interresting though)

Crimean Khanate - Totally unique civ. Gives a complete different game.

Morocco - Fills up a some unoccupied part of the map. Buff against the catholic Iberian civs.

Crown of Aragon - Counterbalance to Spain. Really nice civ to play.

Kingdom of Scotland - You know why...

Also voted, but more to have a reserve civ:
Egypt - A really nice civ to play, but other civs would improve the mod better.

 

[ezzlar]

Novgorod - Plus earlier spawn of Sweden like Merijn wrote above. Not sure about Prussians though.

Separate Denmark/Norway - Combined with above would create an interesting northern part of the map!

Morocco and Tunisia - To fill that empty void in NA

I am not really fond of Aragon but there is something broken with Spain in this mod when they get whole of Iberia.

I would also like the Arabian respawn in Egypt much more powerful. A sizeable spawning stack and decent stability to deal with the crusaders.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Sweden will spawn in 1210 AD, already made some of the recent changes in understanding that it will be moved eariler

 

[AbsintheRed]

Come to think of it, the effect of Crimea on the Ottomans & Moscovy can be represented by a combination of Barbs and Mercenaries. So while Crimea is fun to play on its own, it is not as essential to the whole game as Morocco and Aragon are.

Specifically, we can just add the Crimean UU (Chambul) from RFCE++ as a Mercenary available in the Crimea (and possibly Kuban) province. Some of it will also spawn as Barbs and target Russian cities.

Actually that's also true for the Teutonic Order
Probably even easier... A couple Teutonic Knights spawn a few times, mostly against Lithuania to represent the northern crusades.
Cities in the corresponding areas will get the Teutonic Order company by default

So yeah, I don't think you want to go into these things
Especially since you already know I'm not a fan of the Prussia civ on this map (not enough space, HRE/Brandenburg/Teutonic Order debate)
In fact, IMO Crimea would be both more unqiue, and better for gameplay

Additionally, the effect of Topkapi Palace can be changed to allow the building of Mercenary units. In RFCE++ the Ottomans can build the Tunesian & Crimean UUs (both very good units) via Topkapi Palace, which makes the Wonder a lot more fun and historical than it is in RFCE.

Will see, might not be a bad idea
Depends on the new civs

 

[AluminumKnight]

My votes:

Aragon - has been said already, makes things interesting for a rather dull Spain and spices up the sorely lacking Mediterranean

Novgorod - Utilizes an area of the map that is otherwise largely wasted for most of the game

Tunisia - Uses an area of the map that is otherwise largely wasted for most of the game, also spices up the Mediterranean

Crimean Khanate - Again, an area of the map that isn't used. However, after reading some of your comments, this would be the lowest priority for me.

Separating Norse into Denmark and Norway - Makes Scandanavia more interesting, plus I really want to play Denmark

 

[ezzlar]

Having the Cordobans respawn as a (strong) Almohad civ in NA could remove the need of the Moroocan civ?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Having the Cordobans respawn as a (strong) Almohad civ in NA could remove the need of the Moroocan civ?

It was this way, about 2 years ago
Of course that means no separate UP, UU, UB, or UHVs for them, and they are unplayable
Also, respawns has the same settler and war maps as the "original" civs
This is why respawned Cordoba could never have worked as the Hafsids in Tunesia
The AI always wanted to expand into the Iberian peninsula, instead to the nearby lands near Tunis, the supposed core area of the Hafsids

With Morocco the case is slightly different, as the UU is more than fitting of course
Their theoretical settler and war maps are also somewhat closer, but still not close enough IMO
Not even mentioned yet the production and growth modifiers, and all the other hidden civ specific things, which those 2 civs would also have to share

It's probably possible to separate most of those things, but only with a lot of coding in the background
Much more straigthforward to have them as a new civ

 

[Rorgloin]

Actually that's also true for the Teutonic Order
Probably even easier... A couple Teutonic Knights spawn a few times, mostly against Lithuania to represent the northern crusades.
Cities in the corresponding areas will get the Teutonic Order company by default

So yeah, I don't think you want to go into these things
Especially since you already know I'm not a fan of the Prussia civ on this map (not enough space, HRE/Brandenburg/Teutonic Order debate)
In fact, IMO Crimea would be both more unqiue, and better for gameplay



Will see, might not be a bad idea
Depends on the new civs

While barbarians might work for the Teutonic Order, it will not work for Prussia post 1600s. The vote on the Teutonic Order/Prussia seems to have concluded that they should be represented as one civilization, making barbarians not a viable option. Prussia was a major European power after the 1600s. As the mod covers the 18th century, there is no historically sound excuse for not including Prussia. Since we have decided that Prussia and the Teutonic Order are close enough in game terms to be represented by one civilization, they need to be included as playable.
With regards to the Prussia/Holy Roman Empire debate, if you look back at the last responses to the Prussia/Teutonic Order poll, we rather adequately resolved that. Even if you don't like the idea of adding Prussia, it needs to be included.

 

[Opera]

Also, this argument about space really isn't a good one. I'm pretty sure Prussia can be accomodated for having less settling space... Also, it can conquer stuff.

 

[AbsintheRed]

While barbarians might work for the Teutonic Order, it will not work for Prussia post 1600s. The vote on the Teutonic Order/Prussia seems to have concluded that they should be represented as one civilization, making barbarians not a viable option. Prussia was a major European power after the 1600s. As the mod covers the 18th century, there is no historically sound excuse for not including Prussia. Since we have decided that Prussia and the Teutonic Order are close enough in game terms to be represented by one civilization, they need to be included as playable.
With regards to the Prussia/Holy Roman Empire debate, if you look back at the last responses to the Prussia/Teutonic Order poll, we rather adequately resolved that. Even if you don't like the idea of adding Prussia, it needs to be included.

I made both polls intentionally in a way that Prussia is a major possibility
This means I'm willing to include them if the majority of the players want that
Even if I would probably do it differently for my own version

Having said that:

Even if you don't like the idea of adding Prussia, it needs to be included

As in: I have to include them, no matter what I think?
I'm rather democratic in modding, but.. really?

 

[AbsintheRed]

Also, this argument about space really isn't a good one. I'm pretty sure Prussia can be accomodated for having less settling space... Also, it can conquer stuff.

Actually I made my post about the Teutonic Order for a different reason you guys think
Not against Prussia, rather in defence of Crimea
Disagreed with IOSI that they are an unworthy candidate

 

[Rorgloin]

I made both polls intentionally in a way that Prussia is a major possibility
This means I'm willing to include them if the majority of the players want that
Even if I would probably do it differently for my own version

Having said that:

As in: I have to include them, no matter what I think?
I'm rather democratic in modding, but.. really?

I merely meant that you should include them, that's why I said "it needs to be included" instead of "you must include them". I got the impression from your earlier post that you might not include Prussia either way.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I got the impression from your earlier post that you might not include Prussia either way.

Yeah, I realized that since
Check my last post

 

[Rorgloin]

My bad-- I was typing mine while you were posting yours, so I didn't see it. I agree that Crimea is a good option. I chose not to vote for them because they are not, in my opinion, as necessary as some of the other civilizations. Of all the civilizations we are considering adding, Prussia simply is the most important historically-- my European history textbook only briefly mentions the Crimean khanate, but devotes large portions of several chapters to Prussia. I am just baffled it was not present from the very begining (though I know the story of why it was not).