New Civs gameplay

[stealth_nsk]

All previously released Civs had more or less clear specialization. I.e. Egypt is tall empire with lots of wonders, Babylon is about science, etc. Even UU are compliment to the play style - more defensive for tall empires, forest bonus for Iroques, etc.

In G&K half of civs are OK - i.e. Celts are clearly Religious with some forest flavour. Ephiopia is Religious with defensive tall empire, etc. But...

Carthage - sea civilization with mountains? and elephants? What's the idea?

Sweden has UA about building diplo relations and great people and Hakkapeliitta is somehow connected with Great General, but Carolean? How offensive infantry fits the peaceful diplomacy way?

And, the most interesting civ is Netherlands. I don't see any playstyle connection between their UA (benefit from trading all luxury away), building (food) and unit (sea privateer). I understand what they are historically important things, I just don't understand what gameplay is supposed for them?

 

[blackcatatonic]

I get the impression that Carthage are very much meant to be thought of as a naval force to be reckoned with. The elephants and crossing mountains thing seems little more than an attempt to shoehorn a reference to Hannibal in there somewhere. It sounds quite cool, though.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I get the impression that Carthage are very much meant to be thought of as a naval force to be reckoned with. The elephants and crossing mountains thing seems little more than an attempt to shoehorn a reference to Hannibal in there somewhere. It sounds quite cool, though.

Yes, sounds quite cool, but not very useful and not very consistent. Just another Sea civ. Polynesia or even England look more fun.

 

[NukeAJS]

As for Carthage, I think the idea is that neither sea nor mountains will be able to contain them. If Carthage wants to attack you, there's no stopping them.

Also, being a well-rounded civ isn't a bad thing --look at Siam.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Also, being a well-rounded civ isn't a bad thing --look at Siam.

Siam is highly specialized culture civ with flavor of CS-lover (both as source of culture and patronage as culture spending). Their UB produces additional culture and UU is extremely defensive.

 

[NukeAJS]

Siam is highly specialized culture civ with flavor of CS-lover (both as source of culture and patronage as culture spending). Their UB produces additional culture and UU is extremely defensive.

See when you say - CS lover, culture, and defensive UU - I see three attributes that only compliment a little bit because it takes money to make lots of CS friends in the early to mid game (or at least it used to). That, more often than not, requires "going wide," or at least somewhere in-between tall and wide, and Siam isn't exactly the best choice to do that.

Siam's a great civ, but I wouldn't call them "highly specialized" like I would the Egyptians, England, Spain, Ethiopia, America, Japan, Mongolia, probably Ethiopia etc.

Instead, I'd put them in with the Greeks, Arabia, France, Inca, Persia etc because they can do several victory types and do them well while the above civs can really do only one victory type but do it really well.

 

[stealth_nsk]

See when you say - CS lover, culture, and defensive UU - I see three attributes that only compliment a little bit because it takes money to make lots of CS friends in the early to mid game (or at least it used to). That, more often than not, requires "going wide," or at least somewhere in-between tall and wide, and Siam isn't exactly the best choice to do that.

I could name it shorter - they are targeting Cultural victory through Cultural city-states.

 

[Harv72b]

Yes, sounds quite cool, but not very useful and not very consistent. Just another Sea civ. Polynesia or even England look more fun.

I like Carthage. You get an instant trade route for every new coastal city (post-wheel) and a sea unit that can dominate triremes in the early game. Haven't really messed with the war elephants but they sound good in theory.

They're obviously map-dependent, but on an islands/archipelago map Carthage is really strong (and being able to pass over mountains can even come in handy on pangea/large continents maps).

 

[pspboy7]

Just make sure they don't end up on top of the mountain

 

[ptoss1]

The African Forest Elephants are actually quite powerful. As for the mountain crossing, I don't find it altogether that useful since you still take attrition. It's great for exploration and I've even used the ability as a retreat route against a Chinese army once.. but only after I failed to defeat it.

 

[Flying Mathias]

I think the idea for the Dutch is that they're an expansive Civ. You want to claim as many territories and colonies as possible to get as many luxuries as possible. The sea beggars help defend your embarked settlers, and the polders help your colonies grow quickly.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think the idea for the Dutch is that they're an expansive Civ. You want to claim as many territories and colonies as possible to get as many luxuries as possible. The sea beggars help defend your embarked settlers, and the polders help your colonies grow quickly.

I wouldn't say this. Once you expand your empire wide, you usually don't want to trade even small amount of happiness for gold, this feature is for early development. Polders give bonuses for specific areas, you don't need them for wide multi-terrain empire. And Sea Beggars don't look like defensive units.

I'd say Dutch have some Commerce tree flavor, but it's not very well defined.

 

[Anvari]

Hey,

Carthage is pretty straight forward, isnt it? Its a well balanced domination type-civ with 2 early UU, which aren't just land units like the Huns or Mongols, they are suited for every terrain possible. Even mountain can't stop them. The other part of the UA is a free Harbor, which isnt just a great gold bonus (free maintenance and instant trade route), it improves the production of the city by a nice amount.

I think they are a nice Civ.

 

[Snownova]

I wouldn't say this. Once you expand your empire wide, you usually don't want to trade even small amount of happiness for gold, this feature is for early development. Polders give bonuses for specific areas, you don't need them for wide multi-terrain empire. And Sea Beggars don't look like defensive units.

I'd say Dutch have some Commerce tree flavor, but it's not very well defined.

I agree, I'm currently playing a game as the Dutch, but I'm having trouble figuring out what to focus on. I went for a wide empire, settling about 7 cities and just starting overseas colonisation (Terra map), but now that my cities are starting to grow I find I can't afford to sell my luxuries anymore (which was a major source of income in the past) and I don't have enough culture and too many cities to fill out the commerce tree to compensate.

I do like the Dutch, they can be very versatile and don't appear to be extremely biased to any specific victory type.

 

[Vatras]

The Dutch, who were my neighbours in my last game, seem to go only for a few cities, which they build up (his were size 22-29). He had the tech lead over everyone else as I could see on his advanced units (nobody else had rocket artillery), and I saw (and got) RAs by him quite often. Monetary he was doing OK, but not rich, he never sold me a luxury . He definitely did not go after culture. He had the most modern and biggest army around, but used it only on someone else in conjunction with a partner.
So the AI was possibly going for a science victory with him?

 

[Buccaneer]

I'm having fun doing a complete conquest with Byzantium. Probably didn't pick my beliefs, including the bonus one, very well but it didn't matter much.

 

[Txurce]

The Sea Beggar fits the commerce orientation of the Netherlands in that it can ask for tribute from CS.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'd call Carthage an Early Naval Economic power and the Dutch a Middle Naval Economic power. The Celts are an Early Religious Power and the Byzantines are a Early-Mid Religious Power. I see Ethiopia as a religion/culture turtle.

The Huns are an Early Military Power. Austria is a mid-late game expansionist power.

I don't really know what to label the Swedes. The Hakkapeletta and Carolean are pretty offensive, but the UA is clearly best utilized for peace. The Maya have a strong early game which is also pretty generic, but their UA comes into play mid-game. They are both good jack-of-all-trades.

 

[smallfish]

I do like the Dutch, they can be very versatile and don't appear to be extremely biased to any specific victory type.

Aggressive science victory

 

[budweiser]

The Celts are an Early Religious Power and the Byzantines are a Early-Mid Religious Power.

I turned my early Celtic religious advantage into tech dominance in the second half by switching from Piety to Rationalism. The Scotts were pretty good at science.

#1 in science baby!