new favorite pantheon- Monument to the gods

There is no question that God of Craftsmen will give more hammers over the course of the game. But that's not the entire equation.

To level set, MotG only applies to Ancient and Classical Era wonders (World Wonders and National Wonders). That list is (unless I've overlooked something) 14 World Wonders and 5 National Wonders:

Circus Maximus
Colossus
Great Library
Great Lighthouse
Great Wall
Hanging Gardens
Heroic Epic
Mausoleum of Halicarnasis
National College
National Epic
Oracle
Parthenon
Petra
Pyramids
Statue of Zeus
Stonehenge
Temple of Artemis
Terracotta Army
Writers' Guild

All of the World Wonders cost either 185 or 250 hammers (8 at 185 and 6 at 250), so call that an average hammer cost of about 210 per wonder. That means MotG will save you about 27 hammers per World Wonder without Aristocracy or marble (and will save about 24 hammers with either Aristocracy or marble). How many World Wonders are realistic? Well, that depends on difficulty level (wouldn't bother with it on Deity), and some require different policy tree openers (Statue of Zeus (Honor), Hanging Gardens (Tradition) and Pyramids (Liberty)), several (Petra, Great Lighthouse, Colossus) you may be unable to build due to city location, and others won't be there when you are ready to build them. But, let's be REALLY generous and assume you can build 10 of the 14 World Wonders, with a representative blend of those that cost 185 hammers and those that cost 250 hammers, AND that you had MotG for all of those wonder builds (a bit unrealistic, since Great Library and Stonehenge typically require early hammer investments). MotG in this scenario saves about 270 hammers (10 x 27) (240 hammers if you also have Aristocracy or marble).

Let's also assume that you build all of the Ancient/Classical Era National Wonders before you settle too many cities (or maybe you are playing Tall anyway), so let's assume a 30-hammer savings on the National Wonders (Writer's Guild is only 100 hammers to build, so 30 hammers overstates MotG for it, but Heroic Epic probably comes a lot later, so maybe it evens out...). Anyway, with 5 National Wonders, MotG saves approx. 150 hammers.

Total MotG hammer savings = up to approx. 420 hammers (more or less), many of which probably came before turn 150 or so. Let's put the turn 150 total at 250 hammers saved (probably overly generous, but 10 World Wonders is also pretty darn generous).

Now GoC: Let's assume you get the pantheon around turn 40 or so, that you settled your second city around that same turn (perhaps the start of a Tradition 4-city opener) and it got to 3 pop by turn 60 (pretty conservative). You then settled cities 3 and 4 right after finishing a 2-city NC build, but they each take until turn 100 to get to 3 pop (again, pretty conservative).

Under that scenario, GoC will provide 1 hammer per turn from turn 41 to turn 60 (20 hammers), 2 hammers per turn (cap and city 2) from turn 61 to turn 100 (40 hammers), and 4 hammers per turn in your 4 cities from turn 101 to the end of the game (perhaps you get a culture or diplo victory on turn 250) (600 hammers). Total from GoC: 660 hammers. Of this total, 260 came before turn 150, but mostly in the turn 101-150 time range. And the longer the game lasts and/or the more cities you have, the more valuable GoC is. And this is before you take account of potential puppets with your religion, spitting out an extra hammer as they crank out walls, castles, markets, banks, and other stuff that puppets build.

The punchline is that in this highly stylized example (10 of 14 World Wonders--really?), MotG gets off to a quicker start than GoC, which catches up around turn 150 and then leaves MotG in its wake.

Of course this ignores the snowball effect that early hammers can provide, particularly if those early hammers get wonders that will speed you along your path and/or provide more hammers themselves (e.g., Terracotta's free units, ToA's extra food that allows you to work an extra hammer tile or two in each city, etc.).

This is similar to the trade-offs involving the gold-giving Founder beliefs: Church Property, Initiation Rites and Tithe. Initiation Rites clearly gives the largest amount of upfront gold, Church Property is in the middle, and Tithe really hits its stride later in the game, as city populations rise, but provides paltry rewards when all you can see are 3- to 5-pop cities all around you.
 
That's why God of Craftsmen can be more valuable. Its hammer applies to everything you build and is competitive with MotG in lower hammer cities.

I preferred to pick it up as Rome if Messenger of the Gods was not available.
+2 production +25% from Rome UA, ensures you won't build monument for the next 30 turns in new city. :lol: Haven't played Rome in BNW yet, but doubt it's that cute now, since you'll have fewer cities as Rome in BNW anyway (goodbye to ICS) and you can always slap a food\production trade route into a new city.
 
one only situation that i've took MotG is when that one game when i found early natwonders with spain, i have money to rushbuy any building in cap, and have to build wonders anyway.
 
Of course this ignores the snowball effect that early hammers can provide....

Exactly. Total # of hammers is not the only consideration, you have to think about when they come in during the game. Getting +1 when your capital is producing 80 or more is not of any real consequence. For example if MtoG means building both the Great Library and Oracle, you'll have a Great Scientist really early.
 
I prefer MotG over GoC because it helps you a lot in the early race to finish those useful ancient/classical wonders. Hammers in the vacuum aren't that useful; it's what those hammers are applied to that matters. Concentrating a small amount of hammers on a wonder is better than diffusing a larger amount of hammers on various buildings/units that aren't time-sensitive.

GoC might yield more hammers in the long run, but that fails to take into account the benefit you get from finishing a wonder like the Great Library and achieving a scientific great leap forward, or something like the Terracota Army that can potentially help you defeat one neighbouring civ, versus being beaten to those wonders by the AI and having all those hammers turned into a paltry sum of gold.
 
Monument to the Gods is only better than God of Craftsmen if...

(a). You already have 7+ production. Otherwise, +15% production is less than +1 production.
(b). You're going to hoard ancient/classical wonders.

In short, GoC is a much better-rounded Pantheon, and it lasts for the whole game. It's also good for building units and buildings, not just wonders. It's almost always the better option.
 
Fertility Rites is an awful pantheon to pick unless you're going very tall and will have a lot of food available, such as from Hanging Gardens. Definitely not the belief you want to pick if you're 'just going to be lazy' about it. Craftsmen would be a great 'lazy' pick.

Then that calls for an explanation of growth (again) :)
which I just did here
 
MtG is not a bad pantheon if you're especially going to focus on producing wonders in the early game. Combined with marble, you will be snapping up wonders as if you were playing Egypt, only much quicker. I don't even want to think about how Egypt would take advantage of their UA+marble+MtG pantheon. It would be obscene the amount of production towards wonders they'd have.

I tried that before, my friend and I were playing a MP match, I random-rolled Egypt and notice some marble. This was very early G+K and did not know the pantheons well. I saw the pantheon and am thinking "I won". the huge extra production means I had so many wonders, the game was over when I ticked into the medieval era. I'm not even going to mention the isolated continent... fair to say that was the most heavily in my favor game I have ever played.
 
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