New film version of Dune to be made :)

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Kyriakos, Mar 1, 2017.

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  1. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Hardcore purists only count Frank Herbert written Dune books as canon.

    Only 2 of his books were actually good though IMHO, 4 ranged from eh to God awful.

    Some of the new Dune books are quite good imho. Wasn't a massive fan of Hunters and Sandworms of Dune that concluded the saga but they were ok.
     
  2. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    The KJA books are fun, but lack the complex themes of the first few Frank Herbert books. Sort of like how Larry Niven's newer works compares to classics like Ringworld. Still fun books, but lack the rigor that made Ringworld so great.

    For me, the readable ones were Dune, Messiah, and Children. I trudged through God Emperor and actually enjoyed the first 3/4 of Heretics.
     
  3. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    I liked Dune and God Emperor. I was 15 or so in early 1994 so might be better now.

    Reread Dune not to long ago.
     
  4. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    It seems we have the same age.
     
  5. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    1978. Great year.
     
  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Hm, I was wrong. You are old... I was born in 1979 :)
     
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  7. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Yeah, you are definitely right about that, the new books are average space opera fare. The original books are masterful in comparison.

    We weren't talking about that though, although I admit you can put in your head canon whatever you want.
     
  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Herbert sounds like a cool guy :)

     
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  9. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I mean, we all draw a line somewhere, else you have to consider my homoerotic sandworm fanfiction canon, too :lol:

    which opens up the true Gretchenfrage @Ajidica .. Is C0DA canon?
     
  10. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    If homoerotic sandworm fanfiction was accepted as canon by the Herbert estate, then yeah, I would consider it a part of the official canon. After all, who best to determine what's part of the official story and what isn't? Of course, Frank Herbert should be the one deciding all of that, but unfortunately he isn't with us. Legally speaking that honour passes down to his estate.

    I don't really see how it matters either way, you can either read the new books or not and decide how you feel about them yourself. This whole "canon" thing is really silly anyhow. Just read the books and enjoy the story. Whenever people start talking about "canon" it sounds like gatekeepers arguing, and I hate gatekeeping. They're books, just read them or not, who cares about the rest

    See, the people I am talking about are specifically the people who aren't thinking. They are just following what their "side" is doing and doing the exact same thing, putting their thoughts and opinions in line with the group think.

    Not all people on the extreme left and not all people on the extreme right are like that. You need ring leaders for every movement after all.

    I welcome people who disagree with me into rational discourse, so we can discuss these ideas! Surely you've seen me doing a lot of that on these forums. The best people to talk to on here are people like Tim, who I disagree with on a whole plethora of subjects. Holding discussions only with people who agree with everything you say gets boring quick. If there was a clone of me on these forums, I'm sure we would have some fun banter back and forth, but in these discussions about sensitive topics.. what's there to talk about if we agree about everything?

    The problem is that there are many people out there who do not want to discuss - they want to preach "their side" to you, and if you disagree, they yell at you until you go away or wololololo over to their side. I have no time for people like that. Show me that you're actually presenting your own original thoughts and ideas, or go away. The people who pick a "side" and go along with it brainlessly are not worth my time - and are dangerous to the whole concept of rational discourse to begin with. It's why I find 99% of all American political discourse as a cancer and make fun of it or just stay away.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  11. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    At least the Harkonnens will be a lot better in this movie than in the Lynch version. In Lynch I could barely stand Vladimir, and he was the best of the three there (although female viewers may disagree :) ).
    The 2000 tv series had a better Vladimir and a better Sting Feyd Harkonnen. Glossu Rabban also was better by default, cause in Lynch he was just comedic.

     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  12. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    It seems the movie will be released one year from now...

    By the way, from the trailer it looks like the new film presents how shields work according to the book, not as they worked in Lynch's film or the Syfy series. And (from what I read) the shields in the book are very problematic:
    they seem to cause a large explosion (nuclear?) if hit by laser, and this is what prevents people from using lasers/modern weapons in combat. In Lynch and Syfy the shields don't cause any explosion, they just prevent (due to reasons) fast moving bullets/beams from penetrating, while allowing slow moving objects (like a knife/blade).

    But the book way makes no sense. If a shield exploded and killed everything in the city, why would the enemy just not use a kamikaze type agent? Or maybe target a shield from orbit and have it nuke the base :)
    Moreover, if you had armies fighting, anyone could threaten to use a laser on a shield to force the other side to call it a day, no?
     
  13. Leifmk

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    It's literally over 30 years since I read the books, but I seem to remember that the magnitude of the explosion would be somewhat random and unpredictable. And possibly there were some other reasons given for why it wasn't a usual tactic to do this deliberately.
     
  14. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Still makes no sense that if one was about to die, they wouldn't just take the enemy (and many more) with them.
     
  15. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    The new books can be decent space opera, but anyone expecting to encounter anything like the beautiful and poetic prose of the originals will be very disappointed. One of the things Herbert Sr. was so good at is dialogue.. Yet his son really sucks at dialogue. Same w/ Anderson. So when you sit down to one of these books and you're thinking "Oohh Dune", and you remind yourself of all the good things that made Dune good.. the setting.. the characters.. the dialogue.. the well writen prose. The new books rely on none of that and take everything in a very different "space opera light" sort of direction.

    It's like asking Michael Bay to direct the sequel to Hamlet. You might get something entertaining out of it, but fans of the original will not find the same sort of story telling in the sequel. The intended audience is just.. different.

    I enjoyed reading most of the new books, but I like space opera. This isn't great space opera, and most of it isn't even good space opera. I'd call most of these books "average space opera light". Some of them were good though, and some were meh. I was buying these books a couple years after they came out (give me paperback or give me death), but then I really stopped caring. I am not really that interested to go back and find out how everything originated. I mean, it can still be interesting to read about, but most of the "let's explain how this came to be, gather round!" stuff that happens in the new books just seems forced.

    It sounds like I'm saying that the new books suck, but like I said I did enjoy reading many of them. In a different way than I enjoy reading the originals. It's the same thing as you enjoying a $100 steak differently from a $5 greasy burger. Both can be tasty, just in different ways. And if you bite into a burger expecting a steak, you are going to be disappointed.

    All those people who continue yellnig about these new books need to find better hobbies though. If you don't like them, don't read them *shrug*

    The first time I read through books 4-6, my initial reaction was pretty much.. "wtf did I just read?".. I had to read the whole series again to really pick up on many of the things these books were trying to communicate to me. After the second read-through I enjoyed those books a lot more, but yeah, they are hard to follow. Some of it seems like. well.. the author took these ideas that began in Dune and spun them out of control just a tad.. but.. I believe that's because the original Dune novel has been so romanticized. It's a classic. But the themes in Dune and the themes in the overall story (books 1-6) are different. When these new themes emerge in the latter books, you end up thinking of that first book in a different way. You saw some of the hints of these themes, but now they seem to be really pulled out in a rather strange way. The more I got used to them though, the more I accepted the whole franchise as a .. different sort of thing than what it would have been if it just was that one book and nothing else. It's a different story, so you have to adapt. But the way Herbert wrote, that can be tough to do.
     
  16. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    It is not unusual for series of books to have mostly the first titles - or just the first book - be widely read. Another case is C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia. I doubt most people bothered to read past the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.
     
  17. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    It is strongly implied throughout the first book that there is a very strong taboo against intentionally creating a shield-lasgun interaction. When Paul and Jessica are fleeing from the Harkonnens, I believe Paul set up a shield-lasgun trap to catch the pursuing Harkonnens. Jessica reacted with shock, and didn't entirely buy Paul's argument that he was only using the explosion to collapse the valley and not kill the Harkonnens.
    Plus there is the whole idea of kanly/vendetta in the books. Despite the overwhelming success of the Harkonnen attack on the Atreides on Arrakis, enough Atreides soldiers escaped to use their house atomics on secret Harkonnen spice vaults. If a House tried to wipe out another by using a suicidal/intentional shield-lasgun interaction, it would probably be acceptable for any survivors to stage a raid on the offending house with their family atomics.

    I have to disagree on the dialogue aspect. However evocative and memorable it was, Herbert's dialogue struck me as very stiff and artificial - like characters were saying rehearsed lines and not speaking as a human would. Of course, this is endemic to all older scifi and fantasy, and Dune was very much in the awkward phase where scifi/fantasy was breaking out of its pulp background into a more realistic medium.
     
  18. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I found a certain kind of "flow" and distinct style for each character and the way they spoke in the original novels. It was a pleasure to read the dialogue, it felt like it was actually what these characters would say. I agree that a lot of the dialogue was.. poetic? Written in a slightly strange prose.. But I found that it was mainly ehh the supernatural sort of characters who spoke this way. It is one aspect of these books that's slightly hard to follow, but I always took that to be.. well, the way these people speak. If you have all your ancestors in your head, going back thousands of years, wouldn't you speak differently? I also think that thousands years from now our ways of speaking would change as well. A lot of these characters are also royalty, as well as desert nomads, so when I was reading through the book I simply assumed that these subcultures simply have slightly different ways of speaking. I did find the dialogue confusing in books 4, 5, and 6. Half the time you can't tell if it's a dream or a flashback or something else entirely..

    So I sort of get what you're getting at, but I didn't find that to be an issue necessarily. I found Herbert Sr.'s use of dialogue to be mainly excellent. The new books just do the bare minimum for the dialogue and it just often feels so wooden. I will stick to my assertion that Herbert Sr. was a master of writing good dialogue. It just always seemed to flow and be natural, even if you didn't really understand exactly what was going on at the time..
     
  19. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Probably this is the final trailer, and it has a lot of new scenes.



    I didn't like it. I am not sure if the dialogues are true to the book (?), but I don't recall them from previous movie/tv series versions.
     
  20. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Administrator Supporter

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    Aaah, I like it. The music is definitely a lot better than in the last trailer too.
     

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