New Game Speeds

[JosEPh_II]

From the data supplied by GS testers, like SirJohnEh (who gives excellent data) I have committed a change to Marathon, Snail, Eon, and Eternity GS research rates. They all have been increased by 10%. Long GSs reaching Ancient Era before 10,000BC is unacceptable for "most" normal game play. Especially on Difficulty levels from Monarch and above. Of course players will always find exploits to increase their rates.

Handicap modifiers will be the next step used to curb player runaway research, as I do not want to stress the AI too much. They should be able to handle this 10% increase for now.

 

[SirJohnEh]

I have committed a change to Marathon, Snail, Eon, and Eternity GS research rates

@JosEPh_II : Sounds very interesting! I recently started a test game at SVN 9734 with Upscaled Building Costs turned on for the first time - reached Sedentary Lifestyle at turn 388 in 5505 BC (versus turn 317 in 10666 BC in previous test). I will upgrade to SVN 9748 to get this research 10% rate increase, and re-run on the same 2 maps.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Having it as a Civic hides it even more as you have no control of where it goes. Unless the Civic is something that limits how much you can put into Foreign Aide and then you go into the Foreign Advisor and allocate the money.

So you're saying you'd want it to be on a nation by nation basis rather than overall. So then I'm thinking we're back to the diplomacy screen, but not just a matter of gold per round or flat gold trade options but rather diplomatic subsidy option, some % of your excess income you can offer. That and some adjustments to make gifting more diplomatically beneficial.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II : Sounds very interesting! I recently started a test game at SVN 9734 with Upscaled Building Costs turned on for the first time - reached Sedentary Lifestyle at turn 388 in 5505 BC (versus turn 317 in 10666 BC in previous test). I will upgrade to SVN 9748 to get this research 10% rate increase, and re-run on the same 2 maps.

Hmmm...... the increase of 35% more cost for units and buildings is the cause for this change. Not the research rate though as the research rate is the same whether using Upscaled or not in the GS modifiers. More food for thought.

At one point in time I had the research rate for Upscaled Option at a 35% increase over regular GS research rate but was admonished for it as the reason given was that this Option was for Unit and building Costs, not increased penalty for research.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I need a Clear answer on the usage and parameters of the iResearch tag found in CIV4Worldinfo.xml.

Where is it's place in the research ladder/formula?

What is the value for No research change, ie value of 0 vs 100? Is 100 the no change setting with values above 100 increasing research rate and below reducing? Or is 0 the balance point?

Or is it the opposite with values above 100 or 0 reducing research rate and below either balance point increasing?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I need a Clear answer on the usage and parameters of the iResearch tag found in CIV4Worldinfo.xml.

Where is it's place in the research ladder/formula?

What is the value for No research change, ie value of 0 vs 100? Is 100 the no change setting with values above 100 increasing research rate and below reducing? Or is 0 the balance point?

Or is it the opposite with values above 100 or 0 reducing research rate and below either balance point increasing?

I'll have to look at it in the code to give you an answer and that will be later tonight.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'll have to look at it in the code to give you an answer and that will be later tonight.

Thank you.

EDIT:This a repost of Toffer's explanation for me earlier this year.

iTechCostModifier, change the base cost of all techs within an era regardless of what era any players are in, it never stopped working.
So the prehistoric era iTechCostModifier will affect the base cost of:
• All Prehistoric techs
The Ancient era iTechCostModifier will affect the base cost of
• All Ancient techs
etc.

iResearchPercent, change the cost of all techs in the game for the player that are inside the era.
So the prehistoric era iResearchPercent will affect the cost of:
• All prehistoric techs
• Sedentary lifestyle tech
• (It also affects the cost of all the later techs, but this is effectively a lie as another era iResearchPercent will take over at Sedentary Lifestyle.)
When a player reach Ancient era the iResearchPercent from that era will take over and it will affect the cost of:
• All prehistoric & Ancient Techs.
• Classical lifestyle tech.
• (It also affects the cost of all the later techs, but this is effectively a lie as another era iResearchPercent will take over at Classical Lifestyle.)
Etc.

The values of the tags and defines listed below have been normalized for simplicity, meaning that there won't be any divided by 100 or +/- 1 in the equations.

[Cumulative Tech Modifier] = ( iResearchPercent WorldInfo ) + ( iResearchPercent EraInfo ) + ( iResearchPercent HandicapInfo ) + ( iBeelineStingsTechCostModifier EraInfo )
[Base tech cost] = ( iCost TechInfo ) x ( TECH_COST_MODIFIER ) x ( iTechCostModifier EraInfo, depends on what era the tech is in )

[Tech Cost] = [Base tech cost] x [Cumulative Tech Modifier] x ( iResearchPercent GamespeedInfo ) x ( TECH_COST_EXTRA_TEAM_MEMBER_MODIFIER )

Actually, after relocating this and rereading it, it appears to be more complicated than the Old Ladder prior to the New Math.

EDIT2: But I still need to know the balance point value I asked about.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I think Harrier was speaking about a rush build effect, people will be happy about the building in general, just not about the rush (most likely including overtime pay).

In Real Life, this unhappiness could happen for another reason: If there are already several hospitals in the city, people might prefer investing elsewhere (and perhaps improving an existing one).

As was I. Hospitals and Universities. the normal buildings are the ones I tend to rush buy.

Also in Civ you only get one of any building eg hospital in a city so that arguement may be fine for real life but does not transfer to the game where you either have one or don't.

 

[JosEPh_II]

iUnitHurryPercent reverted back to previous values. Tag was explained by Toffer on what it really does. Not what I thought it did. Lesson in tag's meanings taken.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Sorry for not looking this up last night.

In CvWorld there is only iResearchPercent, no reference to an iResearch. I'm not trying to split hairs but I just wanted to make sure that was clear in case by chance you were looking at a different tag somewhere else and the error wasn't in dropping off the Percent portion of the term but rather where you were looking instead...

Assuming it's iResearchPercent, it assumes a base value of 100 but doesn't give that as a default so it also assumes that there will BE a value entered in any xml defined World type. Thus, if you say 50, you're saying the end result should be 50% of whatever normal should be. It combines with other similar modifiers in the general core center so has the same authority level as Era, Handicap and Beeline Stings (if applied). Which is tallied in before the final modifier, which is the team modifier if there is one (at the moment that should basically be 100 so no effect). It is tallied in after game speed, which is, by rights of being the only modifier that comes in first, the most powerful modifier in the stream.

 

[JosEPh_II]

It is tallied in after game speed, which is, by rights of being the only modifier that comes in first, the most powerful modifier in the stream.

The modifier after the group that includes GS? Or GS itself? Trying to understand better.

And yes I meant iResearchPercent in CIV4World. A bit Careless there with my typing.

EDIT: I'm thinking I will revert the iHurryConscriptAngerPercent back closer to the previous values. By my reduction most likely the Angry citizens you get from Hurry and Drafting are now way too low. May even affect Rev as well. Just not sure though.

 

[Toffer90]

The modifier after the group that includes GS? Or GS itself? Trying to understand better.

Gamespeed and the global defines research modifier are the strongest and equally so, all others are weaker and equally so.

EDIT: I'm thinking I will revert the iHurryConscriptAngerPercent back closer to the previous values. By my reduction most likely the Angry citizens you get from Hurry and Drafting are now way too low. May even affect Rev as well. Just not sure though.

I think it were good as it was pre rev. 9746 too.
No sense in having angry population last equally many turns on all gamespeeds. The memory of the people should not be based on amount of turns but amount of years.

 

[Thunderbrd]

The modifier after the group that includes GS? Or GS itself? Trying to understand better.

And yes I meant iResearchPercent in CIV4World. A bit Careless there with my typing.

Gamespeed is on its own and comes before the main group which tallies together their modifiers so as to all be completely equal in the hierarchy.

Thanks for clarifying. I tend to use copy paste to communicate tag names to make sure I'm not mis-stating them since some earlier confusions I created when communicating with Koshling/AIAndy, but yours didn't leave much room for the possibility of erroneous communication so it wasn't that big a deal really. I'm almost sorry I even mentioned it... just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

EDIT: I'm thinking I will revert the iHurryConscriptAngerPercent back closer to the previous values. By my reduction most likely the Angry citizens you get from Hurry and Drafting are now way too low. May even affect Rev as well. Just not sure though.

It helps to maintain the value of those tags that modify this anger if it is generally more penalizing than less. So I agree with you on this.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Revert done. 2 out of 3 now, so much for that experiment!

 

[Noriad2]

Observations on money: I started a new Nightmare game after the building re-costing project (SVN 9716). Currently mid-Renaissance. Due to the much higher prices of most buildings, the return-on-investment (ROI) is much lower, i.e. it takes many more turns to get back your hammers. As a result, many buildings are not really worth building anymore, you are better off using the hammers directly, even if it is just to Build Research or Build Money.

However, due to fewer economic buildings being built, the economic growth curve is much flatter. Last game (before building re-costing) I got an avalanche of cash coming in starting shortly after reaching Banking (end of medieval). However, in my current game cash is not overflowing even though it is mid Renaissance already. I break even with commerce slider at 85% tech/15% cash without building Wealth. But due to other sources of cash (e.g. selling excess resources to the AI) I still manage to keep my research at 100%.

AI does not have a shortage of cash though. Several AI's are technologically much further advanced, and if I click on their cities that I have enough Espionage points on, and look at the upper left corner, they tend to have many millions of cash in reserve. Much more than if you just look at how much they have available in the trade screen.

 

[Thunderbrd]

AI does not have a shortage of cash though. Several AI's are technologically much further advanced, and if I click on their cities that I have enough Espionage points on, and look at the upper left corner, they tend to have many millions of cash in reserve. Much more than if you just look at how much they have available in the trade screen.

Gotta be nice to play on noble when your most lethal competitor is hampered by Deity/Nightmare regulations eh?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Gotta be nice to play on noble when your most lethal competitor is hampered by Deity/Nightmare regulations eh?

The AI does not play on Noble when player is on Deity or Deity nightmare. The AI is getting additional bonuses so it is basically playing on Warlord or Chieftain. This is why I've posted that the Handicap files are a mess IF you want the AI to play at Noble for all Handicap levels for player above Prince.

These bonuses were given to the AI a long long time ago. They were "somewhat scaled" in their usage. But modder "tweakage" over the years has even tilted that.

Making the AI play at Noble level (and even Noble level is "off") is on my list of To Dos If the head cheeses wants it to be so (looking at SO, T-brd, and DH).

 

[Thunderbrd]

The AI does not play on Noble when player is on Deity or Deity nightmare. The AI is getting additional bonuses so it is basically playing on Warlord or Chieftain. This is why I've posted that the Handicap files are a mess IF you want the AI to play at Noble for all Handicap levels for player above Prince.

These bonuses were given to the AI a long long time ago. They were "somewhat scaled" in their usage. But modder "tweakage" over the years has even tilted that.

Making the AI play at Noble level (and even Noble level is "off") is on my list of To Dos If the head cheeses wants it to be so (looking at SO, T-brd, and DH).

There are some bonuses that the AI gets when it starts off because of the level of the human player being high, yes. Such as an extra settler on Deity. And a few more things. But as for direct handicap settings, it's still Noble, right?

 

[JosEPh_II]

There are some bonuses that the AI gets when it starts off because of the level of the human player being high, yes. Such as an extra settler on Deity. And a few more things. But as for direct handicap settings, it's still Noble, right?

No, emphatically No!

 

[Thunderbrd]

No, emphatically No!

hmm... so when you look at the actual difficulty level the AI is set to when you start a game, it shows something other than Noble?

I suppose it's probably hard for a single player to ever see this, though it can probably be seen in worldbuilder somewhere. On an MP game in the startup lobby you can see what they are set to.