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NEW Handicap's

Discussion in 'C2C mod mods' started by strategyonly, Apr 26, 2014.

  1. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Proposed NEW Handicap System for C2C​



    After alot of discussion and making changes to the NEW handicap system for C2C, below is the attached "Proposed" ALOT harder system for ALL handicaps included.

    Each one has been slightly different including settler.

    This should make things more interesting and viable even for the beginner to the Die Hard Fan, at least that is what i am hoping. You will get more "Anarchy" times.

    So i present to you :eek: wallah: :)

    Of course this needs to be tested , so now i need your ideas/suggestions on the NEW Handicap System for C2C, thx . . . SO
     
  2. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I was thinking of Titan, then Chaos, then Commander, then Supreme Commander??? For the next levels of difficulty??

    I added the Commander ones because of the COSMOS name in C2C.

    What do you'll think here also, thx. . . . SO
     
  3. Rwn

    Rwn Chieftain

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    (hm, the forum seems very buggy right now...)
     
  4. Rwn

    Rwn Chieftain

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    If that helps :mischief:

    Spoiler :
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5 Column 6 Column 7 Column 8 Column 9 Column 10 Column 11
    <Type> HANDICAP_SETTLER HANDICAP_CHIEFTAIN HANDICAP_WARLORD HANDICAP_NOBLE HANDICAP_PRINCE HANDICAP_MONARCH HANDICAP_EMPEROR HANDICAP_IMMORTAL HANDICAP_DEITY HANDICAP_TITAN
    <Description> TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_SETTLER TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_CHIEFTAIN TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_WARLORD TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_NOBLE TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_PRINCE TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_MONARCH TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_EMPEROR TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_IMMORTAL TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_DEITY TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_TITAN
    <Help> TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_SETTLER_HELP TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_CHIEFTAIN_HELP TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_WARLORD_HELP TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_NOBLE_HELP TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_PRINCE_HELP TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_MONARCH_HELP TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_EMPEROR_HELP TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_IMMORTAL_HELP TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_DEITY_HELP TXT_KEY_HANDICAP_DEITY_HELP
    <iFreeWinsVsBarbs> 5 4 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAnimalAttackProb> 25 50 75 85 90 95 90 90 90 90
    <iStartingLocPercent> 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
    <iAdvancedStartPointsMod> 150 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iGold> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iFreeUnits> 30 24 18 14 12 10 9 8 7 6
    <iUnitCostPercent> 20 30 90 100 105 110 115 120 125 130
    <iResearchPercent> 60 75 95 100 105 110 115 120 125 130
    <iDistanceMaintenancePercent> 45 55 75 80 85 90 95 100 100 100
    <iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent> 40 50 70 75 80 85 90 100 100 100
    <iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance> 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 9
    <iColonyMaintenancePercent> 60 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160
    <iMaxColonyMaintenance> 200 200 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100
    <iCorporationMaintenancePercent> 60 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160
    <iCivicUpkeepPercent> 50 60 70 100 105 110 110 120 125 130
    <iInflationPercent> 60 70 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95
    <iHealthBonus> 4 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
    <iHappyBonus> 6 5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
    <iRevolutionIndexPercent> 70 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160
    <iAttitudeChange> 2 1 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1
    <iNoTechTradeModifier> 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 15
    <iTechTradeKnownModifier> -100 -50 -25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal> 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 50 60 70
    <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit> 100 80 60 55 47 40 35 30 25 20
    <iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit> 500 450 400 275 250 250 200 150 100 75
    <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity> 150 140 130 100 90 85 80 75 75 70
    <iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed> 45 40 35 25 23 20 15 10 10 8
    <iBarbarianCityCreationTurnsElapsed> 50 45 40 30 25 22 18 15 15 12
    <iBarbarianCityCreationProb> 5 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
    <iAnimalBonus> -70 -60 -50 -40 -30 -20 -10 -5 0 5
    <iBarbarianBonus> -40 -30 -20 -10 -5 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAIAnimalBonus> -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40
    <iAIBarbarianBonus> -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25
    <iStartingDefenseUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iStartingWorkerUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iStartingExploreUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAIStartingUnitMultiplier> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
    <iAIStartingDefenseUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 3 4 5
    <iAIStartingWorkerUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 2 2
    <iAIStartingExploreUnits> 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 1
    <iBarbarianDefenders> 1 1 1 3 3 3 3 4 4 4
    <iAIDeclareWarProb> 25 50 75 100 100 100 100 100 125 130
    <iAIWorkRateModifier> 0 0 0 0 10 20 50 75 50 50
    <iAIGrowthPercent> 160 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 50 50
    <iAITrainPercent> 160 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iAIWorldTrainPercent> 160 130 110 100 95 100 100 100 75 70
    <iAIConstructPercent> 160 130 110 100 80 90 85 80 60 60
    <iAIWorldConstructPercent> 160 130 110 100 80 100 100 100 60 60
    <iAICreatePercent> 160 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iAIWorldCreatePercent> 160 130 110 100 95 100 100 100 75 75
    <iAICivicUpkeepPercent> 100 100 100 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iAIUnitCostPercent> 100 100 100 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iAIUnitSupplyPercent> 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50
    <iAIUnitUpgradePercent> 50 50 25 25 25 25 20 15 10 8
    <iAIInflationPercent> 100 90 55 50 45 40 35 30 25 15
    <iAIWarWearinessPercent> 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 20
    <iAIPerEraModifier> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAIAdvancedStartPercent> 100 100 140 160 180 200 220 240 260 280
    <Goodies><GoodyType> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <FreeTechs><FreeTech><TechType> TECH_GRAIN_GATHERING ;TECH_SCAVENGING ;TECH_LANGUAGE TECH_GRAIN_GATHERING 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <FreeTechs><FreeTech><bFreeTech> 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <AIFreeTechs><AIFreeTech><TechType> 0 0 0 0 0 TECH_NOMADIC_LIFESTYLE ;TECH_GRAIN_GATHERING TECH_NOMADIC_LIFESTYLE ;TECH_GRAIN_GATHERING ;TECH_SCAVENGING ;TECH_LANGUAGE TECH_NOMADIC_LIFESTYLE ;TECH_GRAIN_GATHERING ;TECH_SCAVENGING ;TECH_LANGUAGE ;TECH_WEAVING ;TECH_COOPERATION TECH_NOMADIC_LIFESTYLE ;TECH_GRAIN_GATHERING ;TECH_SCAVENGING ;TECH_LANGUAGE ;TECH_WEAVING ;TECH_COOPERATION ;TECH_HERBALISM ;TECH_TOOL_MAKING TECH_NOMADIC_LIFESTYLE ;TECH_GRAIN_GATHERING ;TECH_SCAVENGING ;TECH_LANGUAGE ;TECH_WEAVING ;TECH_COOPERATION ;TECH_HERBALISM ;TECH_TOOL_MAKING
    <AIFreeTechs><AIFreeTech><bFreeTech> 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><PropertySourceType> PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT PROPERTYSOURCE_CONSTANT
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><PropertyType> PROPERTY_CRIME PROPERTY_CRIME PROPERTY_CRIME PROPERTY_CRIME PROPERTY_CRIME PROPERTY_CRIME PROPERTY_CRIME PROPERTY_CRIME PROPERTY_CRIME PROPERTY_CRIME
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><GameObjectType> GAMEOBJECT_CITY GAMEOBJECT_CITY GAMEOBJECT_CITY GAMEOBJECT_CITY GAMEOBJECT_CITY GAMEOBJECT_CITY GAMEOBJECT_CITY GAMEOBJECT_CITY GAMEOBJECT_CITY GAMEOBJECT_CITY
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><RelationType> RELATION_ASSOCIATED RELATION_ASSOCIATED RELATION_ASSOCIATED RELATION_ASSOCIATED RELATION_ASSOCIATED RELATION_ASSOCIATED RELATION_ASSOCIATED RELATION_ASSOCIATED RELATION_ASSOCIATED RELATION_ASSOCIATED
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><AmountPerTurn><AttributeType> ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><AmountPerTurn><Div><AttributeType> 0 ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION 0 ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION 0 ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION 0 ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION 0 0
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><AmountPerTurn><Div><Constant> 0 3 0 5 0 7 0 9 0 0
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><AmountPerTurn><Constant> 0 2 0 2 0 2 0 2 0 0
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><AmountPerTurn><Mult><AttributeType> 0 0 ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION 0 ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION 0 ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION 0 ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION ATTRIBUTE_POPULATION
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><AmountPerTurn><Mult><Constant> 0 0 2 0 3 0 4 0 5 5


    Or for a more "packed-up" table:
    Spoiler :
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5 Column 6 Column 7 Column 8 Column 9 Column 10 Column 11
    <Type> SETTLER CHIEFTAIN WARLORD NOBLE PRINCE MONARCH EMPEROR IMMORTAL DEITY TITAN
    <iFreeWinsVsBarbs> 5 4 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAnimalAttackProb> 25 50 75 85 90 95 90 90 90 90
    <iStartingLocPercent> 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
    <iAdvancedStartPointsMod> 150 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iGold> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iFreeUnits> 30 24 18 14 12 10 9 8 7 6
    <iUnitCostPercent> 20 30 90 100 105 110 115 120 125 130
    <iResearchPercent> 60 75 95 100 105 110 115 120 125 130
    <iDistanceMaintenancePercent> 45 55 75 80 85 90 95 100 100 100
    <iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent> 40 50 70 75 80 85 90 100 100 100
    <iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance> 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 9
    <iColonyMaintenancePercent> 60 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160
    <iMaxColonyMaintenance> 200 200 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100
    <iCorporationMaintenancePercent> 60 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160
    <iCivicUpkeepPercent> 50 60 70 100 105 110 110 120 125 130
    <iInflationPercent> 60 70 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95
    <iHealthBonus> 4 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
    <iHappyBonus> 6 5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
    <iRevolutionIndexPercent> 70 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160
    <iAttitudeChange> 2 1 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1
    <iNoTechTradeModifier> 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 15
    <iTechTradeKnownModifier> -100 -50 -25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal> 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 50 60 70
    <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit> 100 80 60 55 47 40 35 30 25 20
    <iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit> 500 450 400 275 250 250 200 150 100 75
    <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity> 150 140 130 100 90 85 80 75 75 70
    <iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed> 45 40 35 25 23 20 15 10 10 8
    <iBarbarianCityCreationTurnsElapsed> 50 45 40 30 25 22 18 15 15 12
    <iBarbarianCityCreationProb> 5 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
    <iAnimalBonus> -70 -60 -50 -40 -30 -20 -10 -5 0 5
    <iBarbarianBonus> -40 -30 -20 -10 -5 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAIAnimalBonus> -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40
    <iAIBarbarianBonus> -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25
    <iStartingDefenseUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iStartingWorkerUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iStartingExploreUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAIStartingUnitMultiplier> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1
    <iAIStartingDefenseUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 3 4 5
    <iAIStartingWorkerUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 2 2
    <iAIStartingExploreUnits> 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 1
    <iBarbarianDefenders> 1 1 1 3 3 3 3 4 4 4
    <iAIDeclareWarProb> 25 50 75 100 100 100 100 100 125 130
    <iAIWorkRateModifier> 0 0 0 0 10 20 50 75 50 50
    <iAIGrowthPercent> 160 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 50 50
    <iAITrainPercent> 160 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iAIWorldTrainPercent> 160 130 110 100 95 100 100 100 75 70
    <iAIConstructPercent> 160 130 110 100 80 90 85 80 60 60
    <iAIWorldConstructPercent> 160 130 110 100 80 100 100 100 60 60
    <iAICreatePercent> 160 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iAIWorldCreatePercent> 160 130 110 100 95 100 100 100 75 75
    <iAICivicUpkeepPercent> 100 100 100 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iAIUnitCostPercent> 100 100 100 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iAIUnitSupplyPercent> 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50
    <iAIUnitUpgradePercent> 50 50 25 25 25 25 20 15 10 8
    <iAIInflationPercent> 100 90 55 50 45 40 35 30 25 15
    <iAIWarWearinessPercent> 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 20
    <iAIPerEraModifier> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAIAdvancedStartPercent> 100 100 140 160 180 200 220 240 260 280
    <Goodies><GoodyType> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <FreeTechs><FreeTech><bFreeTech> 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <AIFreeTechs><AIFreeTech><bFreeTech> 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><AmountPerTurn><Mult><AttributeType> 0 1,5 2 2,5 3 3,5 4 4,5 5 5


    Edit: Hmm, seems that's not just my version that has odd values around Prince for iAIConstructPercent...
     
  5. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Now that is what i am talking about, GREAT stuff, thx. I really really really appreciate this, it makes it 10 times easier, thx . . . SO
     
  6. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Chieftain

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    I'm more interested in finding out why you want to add more levels rather than modifying the existing levels. Besides the biggest problem is really the AI not being able to utilize everything in the Mod as well as a player. Any changes or additins to difficulty levels would have to be reversed or remodified as soon as the AI was fixed to be more competetive.

    It would also be nearly impossible to set the difficulties to match all eras as currently each era brings more problems for the AI v. the Human players. A difficulty set up to match Medieval will make the AI better in the Prehistoric, Ancient and Classical Era's, but will lose ground once in the Reinassaince and Industrial are reached.

    Cheers
     
  7. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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  8. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Please explain ALOT more, thx. i am very interesting in what you need to say thx. . . SO

    What do you mean "odd values" around Prince??
     
  9. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Chieftain

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    Well, basically all a difficulty level is is a boost for the AI in various areas of the game: science, production, reduced maintenances and gold, and so on. Early levels make it easier for the Humans, later levels make it more difficult for the Humans and easier for the AI.
    In some of them it is done by changing the costs for the Human player.
    In some of them by changing the costs for the AI player. I.e. all the <AI...>

    Not a one of them take into account the difficulties the AI faces in successfully managing the different new things that are in the game, and the sheer amount of buildings and units that can be used in various ways to accomplish set goals within the game.
    Each Era adds more and more and subsequently each Era becomes more of a challenge for the AI to successfully build and manage their nation and science in, thus each Era produces more and more bottlenecks that hamper the AI and makes it less and less competetive.

    Setting up a difficulty now is basically setting up a system where the better humans can catch up with the AI at a certain point. Lower levels means earlier Eras and even down to already starting out ahead of the AI.
    In the current Deity level the AI might be caught up by the Late Ancient/Early Classical Era in v33+ while it was Mid Classical/Early Medieval back in v28 or so. (This also infers that more and things added makes the AI less and less competetive, especially since not all that much effor tis made to better the AI, only to make the AI capable of how to use things in a basic manner, or even only to be aware of it.)

    Each Era that passes the ratio of progress between the AI and the Human go more and more in the Human's favour. Of course this is changing during the Eras too, just using the Eras as a reference.
    In Prehistory it might be 1.25/1.
    In Ancient it might be 1/1.
    In Classical it might be 0.80/1. And so on. This would also be on Diety level.

    Adding a few new difficulties will in reality only serve to change the starting Ratio and thus push the points of Equality and Passing for the AI v. Human Ratios.
    This in itself creates a horde of other problems as the AI will always be ahead to several things:
    1. The first Religions, Druidism and Shamanism, and to a lesser degree Tengriism and Mesopotamism which currently a dedicated player can reach before the AI if neglecting other things. Pushing the Ratio further will include those and add more of the religions to the list.
    2. Sedentary Lifestyle. Remember all the discussions on getting this before the AI? With the current Diety, which is basically the same as the old Diety, it's very difficult to beat the AI to it, and if you do you are already ahead of the AI. Increase the Ratio and it's a sheer impossibility.
    3. A whole bunch of Wonders. Not talking about all the bonus things, and some of the newer wonders actually hamper the AI (as it builds them rather than focusing on a lot of other things that would increase it's competitiveness more), but all the cool wonders that a player might want.
    4. Oceanic movement. It's possible now to reach that first, unless an AI goes strictly for it, in the Diety difficulty. Scewer the Ratio further and you won't. That also means there is no fight for the Human Player to attempt getting the +1 bonus movement (which is mainly a cool thing to get, not really a big bonus with all the other bonuses to water movements) as the Human will never get to it first.
    5. Adding too high a gap early on will have the Human unable to war effectively, though the "Size Matters" seems to change that even more in the Human favour, removing yet another area where the Human actually had to fight to succeed.
    6. If the AI manages to take over too much land, i.e. settling way too many cities for the Era, before a Human can stop it it will actually hinder the AI more than help it as the AI doesn't consider going under 100% Science a problem while the Human does. Each increase in population in all those cities will increase the costs exponentially (civics+maintenance) and in the end reduce the AI's to rubble, basically, or at least to not being a problem for the Human.
    7. As human players noticing that they are behind will subconsciously try to catch up the point of overtaking will in effect slingshot the human player past the AI as the AI v. Human Ratio at that point will be a lot closer to 0.5/1 than 1/1. That means anything before the point of catching up will be almost always in the AI's domain, while everything after will be squarely in the Human's domain, if the Human wants it.

    Changing or adding difficulties will not really make things better for the Mod.
    Setting up better AI behaviour and strategies might. This would include dialing down on some things the AI does that hamper more than helping due to high gold costs (crime reducing units in every city being overboard, the very expensive herbalist type units that don't even reduce the disease much at all anyway, for instance).
    Changing some small things to be more intuitive might help too (like buildings/civics being pure Production, or Science, or Gold, or Culture, rather than a mix of things) as it's easier to set the AI's take on them that way.
    Changing most Wonders to give unique things and giving them strict flavours. All the "good" Wonders are the ones that help progress (Colossus for instance with +commerce) and/or flavour (Great Lighthouse with added Coastal presence via Trade Routes and trade income), while the "bad" ones are the free building ones as it is often more productive to simply build those buildings instead of the Wonder (I'd rather see the free building be a type one can not build otherwise anyway, more flavour), and the "detrimental" ones are those that neither add flavour nor even give a bonus.

    There's probably a lot more that could be done but those are things I can think of that would help negate the feeling of having to add more difficulty levels.

    Thanks for listening, Cheers
     
  10. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    So in the table in post # 5 above you would change what in the deity to make it better serve the AI?
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Blue's right about a lot of what he states. Not all his AI suggestions I agree with completely but I can understand his thinking there. In particular, simplifying buildings etc... is probably not going to make much of a difference as the AI is pretty well programmed to understand these things.

    One thing I notice is they seem to be too willing to build research so I'm wondering if somehow that's coming up in the buildings list rather than just the process list. There's some stuff to look into there.

    They also need some improved warfare strategy and in watching my wife's current game here I'm not thinking that my efforts to get them to build more siege weaponry has helped much - and that's just scratching the surface of their strategic deficiencies (though they DO have some very clever and amazingly well written strategic moves that can surprise a player.)

    All in all AI work is a whole modder's job and more. (Size Matters AI should be improved now and there's a number of ways I have in mind to improve it further...) It's probably the most complex coding you can get into and the hardest to debug or even notice when there IS one. Lots of issues exist there to improve on and I mean LOTS. We had an up and coming programmer who wanted to help us with AI and I THINK he just got himself properly setup - but I haven't heard from him in a bit. Hopefully his will to work with us continues and I hear from him again soon.

    Koshling was doing some amazing work on AI matters... we'll be missing him greatly in this arena in particular.

    As for me, rudimentary AI to address hotspots is fine for now imo as the game continues process developments. At a point, those will taper off and the AI can really be worked on with the whole scope in mind.

    @SO: When developing these new difficulty settings, you may not want to give the AI the ability to get more cities than they already do on Deity. It would likely be a bigger problem than a benefit for them. Maintenance cannot be anything but crushing at that stage and techs must be developed to enable larger empires so if they overgrow out the gate it'll destroy them rather than help them.
     
  12. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Meaning ?? I guess its too late and not understanding what people are writing sorry.
     
  13. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    On deity setting the ai starts with an extra free settler. I would not give them any more than that to extend the handicap on 'harder settings' or it will backfire (it nearly already does on deity).
     
  14. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Chieftain

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    What I would change. That's a tall order to fill but here goes an attempt:

    Spoiler :
    <iFreeWinsVsBarbs>0</iFreeWinsVsBarbs>
    Can't really be changed.
    <iAnimalAttackProb>50</iAnimalAttackProb>
    This one is iffy as it really is a bonus if animals attack your units. More XP, more potential animals captured faster. In fact I would set this to 50 across the board for all difficulties.
    <iFreeUnits>7</iFreeUnits>
    Wouldn't change this one actually. All it would do is give a slightly slower start for those saving animals for later, and have absolutely no bearing whatsoever in the later game.
    <iUnitCostPercent>125</iUnitCostPercent>
    No change either. Better set the AI version AITrainPercent on this one lower instead.

    <iResearchPercent>150</iResearchPercent>
    Here is a big one and could be increased even more and offset with the AI having even fewer starting techs instead.

    <iDistanceMaintenancePercent>125</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
    <iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>125</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
    <iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>8</iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>
    <iColonyMaintenancePercent>150</iColonyMaintenancePercent>
    <iMaxColonyMaintenance>200</iMaxColonyMaintenance>
    You might want to reverse how it's used already. Lower in Settler, higher on higher difficulties.

    <iCorporationMaintenancePercent>150</iCorporationMaintenancePercent>
    <iCivicUpkeepPercent>150</iCivicUpkeepPercent>
    <iInflationPercent>90</iInflationPercent>
    The Maintenance increases are iffy. Too high and the Human starts with losing money with the 1pop original city, which only serves to slow the Human down in the beginning and offset the point of catching up a bit more. Something to keep in mind with increased costs is also that for a Human player it mainly serves to cut down on the # of military units the Human maintains to keep Science Bar at or near 100% while for an AI player it can serve to reduce the Science output as the AI will often keep a higher amount of units anyway, regardless of where their Science Bar is at, and thus an AI should have a lot lower maintenance and higher ability to keep the Science Bar higher to stay more competetive. As it goes by Noble Diff it's rather low already but still barely enough to give them no extra starting costs with 2 cites.

    <iHealthBonus>2</iHealthBonus>
    There's a reason this isn't starting lower in most difficulties in C2C and I think it should be even higher as it can take several hundred turns on Marathon to start growing at all with the first city.

    <iHappyBonus>4</iHappyBonus>
    Starting too low on Happy can result in a first city not even being able to work a single plot. Staying on 4 sounds good still.

    <iRevolutionIndexPercent>175</iRevolutionIndexPercent>
    Making it harder to expand quickly.

    <iAttitudeChange>0</iAttitudeChange>
    Going negative will not only make the AI like you less but also all the other AI's. More wars between AI's makes it easier for the Human players. To expand, take out the AI's, the Human should be made to start the wars. Also better served by taking Aggressive Option as that increases AI v. Human aggression and not AI v. AI aggression (I sincerely hope) and by increasing the AI declare war probablility.

    <iNoTechTradeModifier>10</iNoTechTradeModifier>
    Reduce the AI's iterest in supplying Tech Trade to a more advanced player.

    <iTechTradeKnownModifier>0</iTechTradeKnownModifier>
    Not sure if this one can be set to a positive value. If it can 50 or higher would be a good number to decrease the AI's willingness to trade it's techs to the Human (and other AI) when being alone with knowing it.

    <iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>100</iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>
    Less animals. For the AI it might be better with more animals though as a player can hunt for specific animals a lot easier than the AI can even with fewer animals. The difference isn't that big though as there are still quite a few animals popping up.

    <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>10</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>
    <iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>75</iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>
    More Barb Units doesn't change the AI's progression but keeps it better prepared to fight off other invasions too.

    <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity>50</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity>
    More Barb Cities helps the AI to not expand too quickly as Barb Cities are blocking the way more. Besides 9 plots out of 50 isn't that much still.

    <iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed>10</iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed>
    Keeping at 10 so all players have a chance to scout out for and place their initial city before being potentially attacked by animals/barbarians. This is especially important for the AI starting with 2 Band of Homo Sapiens and wanting to settle two cities.

    <iBarbarianCityCreationTurnsElapsed>25</iBarbarianCityCreationTurnsElapsed>
    Increased slightly for more time to run around getting animals before Barb Cities block the way. This partly because Animals inside a Barb City Border can not be captured.

    <iBarbarianCityCreationProb>15</iBarbarianCityCreationProb>
    Increased slightly so that once they start they are more probable to pop.

    <iAnimalBonus>0</iAnimalBonus>
    <iBarbarianBonus>0</iBarbarianBonus>
    <iAIAnimalBonus>-40</iAIAnimalBonus>
    <iAIBarbarianBonus>-25</iAIBarbarianBonus>
    Human and AI bonuses v. Animals/Barbarians don't need changing at all.

    <iStartingDefenseUnits>0</iStartingDefenseUnits>
    <iStartingWorkerUnits>0</iStartingWorkerUnits>
    <iStartingExploreUnits>0</iStartingExploreUnits>
    Human extra starting units are not needed as they start without techs for any useful units anyway.

    <iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>1</iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>
    <iAIStartingDefenseUnits>2</iAIStartingDefenseUnits>
    <iAIStartingWorkerUnits>2</iAIStartingWorkerUnits>
    <iAIStartingExploreUnits>1</iAIStartingExploreUnits>
    AI starting units needs to be carefully calibrated. With 14 free units you can not really increase this, nor does it makes much difference at all. The Multiplier means the 5 units are 10 anyway, +1 for the Tribal Guardian. Any more and you risk having the AI pay unit maintenance from start and being unable to &#8220;hold on&#8221; to any animals captured, at least until the gatherers are done with their improvements.

    <iBarbarianDefenders>6</iBarbarianDefenders>
    Harder to take out the Barb Cities.

    <iAIDeclareWarProb>150</iAIDeclareWarProb>
    Increased to make the AI more prone to Dec War on the Human player.
    <iAIWorkRateModifier>50</iAIWorkRateModifier>
    Half the time of Human players is already fast enough. If this does NOT affects upgrade times it might be better served with going to 75% though.

    <iAIGrowthPercent>75</iAIGrowthPercent>
    Growing cities too fast is detrimental. Better keep it down a bit so the AI's costs don't skyrocket. If they do they'll just drop science instead.

    <iAITrainPercent>50</iAITrainPercent>
    Faster building of units to meet threats easier and to have more units to wage war with when needing.

    <iAIWorldTrainPercent>50</iAIWorldTrainPercent>
    Hero training, world units at any rate. In the case of C2C only one nation can build them usually anyway so set at the same as normal units. Exceptions to only one nation are the Religion World Units, which are very, very few (and would be cool to have more).

    <iAIConstructPercent>50</iAIConstructPercent>
    Having this very low means AI can build basically ALL buildings. Better get the AI to flavour buildings. Also could be one reason for the Build Research/Wealth that people see.

    <iAIWorldConstructPercent>75</iAIWorldConstructPercent>
    Kept at 75 so there's SOME fight to build them open for the Human. Most Wonders should be carefully considered before being built anyway and there's only a fight if relatively close in Science.

    <iAICreatePercent>75</iAICreatePercent>
    Don't know how many non-world Projects there are so not sure this one even matters at all.

    <iAIWorldCreatePercent>75</iAIWorldCreatePercent>
    Same as for World Wonders.

    <iAICivicUpkeepPercent>60</iAICivicUpkeepPercent>
    Lowered quite a bit to give the AI ability to keep Science Bar up while maintaining a decent army.

    <iAIUnitCostPercent>50</iAIUnitCostPercent>
    Low for maintaining army without eating into Science Bar.

    <iAIUnitSupplyPercent>50</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
    <iAIUnitUpgradePercent>10</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>
    Kept here though with the AI having more money as it is already this is just icing on the cake.

    <iAIInflationPercent>25</iAIInflationPercent>
    Again just icing on the cake. The bigger factors are unit maintenance, Civic costs, and City Maintenance costs. Keeping those down will decrease Inflation Costs as it is already.

    <iAIWarWearinessPercent>50</iAIWarWearinessPercent>
    I am of the mind that a too low factor here can mean the AI stays in bad wars too much, or keeps going into wars where there's nothing to gain when already at a relative high weariness, which is potentially very detrimental to the AI's growth. Feel free to correct me on this,a nd if so then reducing it to 20 is just fine.

    <iAIPerEraModifier>-10</iAIPerEraModifier>
    This one reduces the overall costs for the AI by this factor in % everytime it reaches a new Era. C2C really needs this to keep the AI competetive.

    <AIFreeTechs>
    <FreeTech>
    <TechType>TECH_NOMADIC_LIFESTYLE</TechType>
    <bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
    </FreeTech>
    <FreeTech>
    <TechType>TECH_GRAIN_GATHERING</TechType>
    <bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
    </FreeTech>
    <FreeTech>
    <TechType>TECH_SCAVENGING</TechType>
    <bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
    </FreeTech>
    <FreeTech>
    <TechType>TECH_LANGUAGE</TechType>
    <bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
    </FreeTech>
    <FreeTech>
    <TechType>TECH_WEAVING</TechType>
    <bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
    </FreeTech>
    <FreeTech>
    <TechType>TECH_COOPERATION</TechType>
    <bFreeTech>1</bFreeTech>
    </FreeTech>
    </AIFreeTechs>
    Removed a few free technologies from the AI as research is increasd for the Human to 150% higher costs.
    Crime stays the same as Diety as well. Higher just means more guards to reduce it anyway and it's very much high enough with 5/pop already.


    Hope this makes some sense. It's how I've set my Diety level up anyway.

    Cheers
     
  15. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I believe i have it correct here with Blue Genie's Proposed information for Deity and thus deleting the one i had for Titan??:

    Spoiler :
    Column 1 Column 2 Column 3 Column 4 Column 5 Column 6 Column 7 Column 8 Column 9 Column 10 Column 11 Column 12 Column 13
    <Type> SETTLER CHIEFTAIN WARLORD NOBLE PRINCE MONARCH EMPEROR IMMORTAL DEITY TITAN BlueGenie
    <iFreeWinsVsBarbs> 5 4 3 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAnimalAttackProb> 25 50 75 85 90 95 90 90 90 90 50
    <iStartingLocPercent> 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
    <iAdvancedStartPointsMod> 150 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 75 70
    <iGold> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iFreeUnits> 30 24 18 14 12 10 9 8 7 6 6
    <iUnitCostPercent> 20 30 90 100 105 110 115 120 125 130 125
    <iResearchPercent> 60 75 95 100 105 110 115 120 125 130 150
    <iDistanceMaintenancePercent> 45 55 75 80 85 90 95 100 100 100 125
    <iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent> 40 50 70 75 80 85 90 100 100 100 125
    <iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance> 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 9 8
    <iColonyMaintenancePercent> 60 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160 150
    <iMaxColonyMaintenance> 200 200 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 200
    <iCorporationMaintenancePercent> 60 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160 150
    <iCivicUpkeepPercent> 50 60 70 100 105 110 110 120 125 130 150
    <iInflationPercent> 60 70 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 90
    <iHealthBonus> 4 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
    <iHappyBonus> 6 5 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4
    <iRevolutionIndexPercent> 70 80 90 100 110 120 130 140 150 160 175
    <iAttitudeChange> 2 1 0 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 0
    <iNoTechTradeModifier> 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 15 10
    <iTechTradeKnownModifier> -100 -50 -25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal> 10 15 20 25 30 35 40 50 60 70 100
    <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit> 100 80 60 55 47 40 35 30 25 20 10
    <iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit> 500 450 400 275 250 250 200 150 100 75 75
    <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity> 150 140 130 100 90 85 80 75 75 70 50
    <iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed> 45 40 35 25 23 20 15 10 10 8 10
    <iBarbarianCityCreationTurnsElapsed> 50 45 40 30 25 22 18 15 15 12 25
    <iBarbarianCityCreationProb> 5 5 6 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
    <iAnimalBonus> -70 -60 -50 -40 -30 -20 -10 -5 0 5 0
    <iBarbarianBonus> -40 -30 -20 -10 -5 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAIAnimalBonus> -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40 -40
    <iAIBarbarianBonus> -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25 -25
    <iStartingDefenseUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iStartingWorkerUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iStartingExploreUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <iAIStartingUnitMultiplier> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1
    <iAIStartingDefenseUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 3 4 5 2
    <iAIStartingWorkerUnits> 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 2 2 2
    <iAIStartingExploreUnits> 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 1
    <iBarbarianDefenders> 1 1 1 3 3 3 3 4 4 4 6
    <iAIDeclareWarProb> 25 50 75 100 100 100 100 100 125 130 150
    <iAIWorkRateModifier> 0 0 0 0 10 20 50 75 50 50 50
    <iAIGrowthPercent> 160 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 50 50 75
    <iAITrainPercent> 160 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 75 70 50
    <iAIWorldTrainPercent> 160 130 110 100 95 100 100 100 75 70 50
    <iAIConstructPercent> 160 130 110 100 80 90 85 80 60 60 50
    <iAIWorldConstructPercent> 160 130 110 100 80 100 100 100 60 60 75
    <iAICreatePercent> 160 130 110 100 95 90 85 80 75 70 75 60
    <iAIWorldCreatePercent> 160 130 110 100 95 100 100 100 75 75 75
    <iAICivicUpkeepPercent> 100 100 100 100 95 90 85 80 75 70 60
    <iAIUnitCostPercent> 100 100 100 100 95 90 85 80 75 70 50
    <iAIUnitSupplyPercent> 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50
    <iAIUnitUpgradePercent> 50 50 25 25 25 25 20 15 10 8 10
    <iAIInflationPercent> 100 90 55 50 45 40 35 30 25 15 25
    <iAIWarWearinessPercent> 100 90 80 70 60 50 40 30 20 20 10
    <iAIPerEraModifier> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 -10
    <iAIAdvancedStartPercent> 100 100 140 160 180 200 220 240 260 280
    <Goodies><GoodyType> 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <FreeTechs><FreeTech><bFreeTech> 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
    <AIFreeTechs><AIFreeTech><bFreeTech> 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1
    <PropertyManipulators><PropertySource><AmountPerTurn><Mult><AttributeType> 0 1,5 2 2,5 3 3,5 4 4,5 5 5,5
     
  16. Rwn

    Rwn Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    713
    Well, if you look at <iAIConstructPercent> and <iAIWorldConstructPercent>, it's actually lower for Prince than for the next difficulty level...

    My feedback on difficulty levels: As I was struggling on Prince in vanilla BTS, I expected the same in C2C; on my first game (in Prince), I had some reasonably good competition until I went well ahead around end of Classical/Medieval, now I know C2C a bit better, I'm well ahead in Monarch in Ancient era (again, given that I don't consider myself a very good player). I understand now that most players actually play in Deity to have a challenge... My point is, readjusting existing difficulty levels would be much less confusing on how challenging they really are that adding new ones.

    A few comments on BlueGenie's suggestions:
    - I also think low <iAIConstructPercent> is critical to help AI with all the buildings
    - <iAIPerEraModifier> is a good one to use, but -10 looks a bit steep. Is it cumulative or incremental? (i.e. in the 3rd era, is the cost adjusted to 0.8 or to 0.9*0.9=0.81?)
    - Definitely agree with giving less free tech at the start. It's just giving AI a headstart, no helping it on the long run and feels very artificial.


    Something I do also is changing the tech diffusion rate in TechDiffusion_GlobalDefines.xml. It feels much less artificial as the change impact every player indiscriminately, but actually helps the AI much more since it's usually lagging:

    <!-- Tech Diffusion: Threshold percentage of top known tech score at which extra tech welfare help begins. -->
    <DefineName>TECH_DIFFUSION_WELFARE_THRESHOLD</DefineName> -> kept it at 90

    <!-- Tech Diffusion: Power of research rate increase based on number of teams you know who already know the tech you're researching. -->
    <DefineName>TECH_DIFFUSION_KNOWN_TEAM_MODIFIER</DefineName> -> increased it from 50 to 80

    With this change, most AIs still seem quite competitive in research (based on my espionage info), even the smaller ones with half as much cities as me.


    One final comment. Based on my experience with Minor Civs activated, the AI tend to build quite a lot of units and invest significant resources in building "attack squads" or 4-5 units that try to invade my cities. The problem is that there's such a strong advantage in defense in early game that they don't stand a chance as soon as I have a single, maybe two archer to defend. This means I'm much more efficient in investing resources (a few archers that survives) than the AI (wasting resources on units that conquer nothing).
    My suggestion to help address this:
    - Lower the initial defense advantage. This also includes the wall advantage - before battering ram, it's nearly impossible to reduce the defense of a city, even with battering ram it's very costly.
    - Have the AI pillage when they can't invade. Very annoying, but forces the player to be more active than just defending its cities. The AI (including barb) seems to pillage in early prehistory, but I rarely see it later.
    - A very successful tactic I use is to have several Ambushers around my border to dispatch most weak units - scouts, hunters, etc. The AI should be able to do the same and even harrass you inside your borders if you don't guard your borders ;)

    Overall, this would force the player to invest more resources in unit building, something the AI does already.
     
  17. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Modiki: A modifier which, multiplied for the current era, affects units cost, buildings cost, projects cost, unit support, unit supply, inflation rate, war weariness, civic upkeep, required food for city growth, unit upgrade cost. (in percent)

    (0 for chieftain, 0 for noble, -5 for deity)
     
  18. Rwn

    Rwn Chieftain

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    Well, this means that, with 10 eras in C2C and -10 in <iAIPerEraModifier>, the AI would ultimately get a -100% on all those values?...
     
  19. BlueGenie

    BlueGenie Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Only way to find out for sure is to try it. I have not gotten further than Modern in any of my games so far so I can not say for sure.

    Also, yes, Prince values seem to be unadjusted during the last change or changes to the file.

    Cheers
     
  20. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

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    A good example of a wonder the ai likes to build that will destroy it is the "Hill of Tara" it gives a free Chief's Hut in all cities which costs money. It looks like a good wonder because it gives a free building. However only if you dig further do you see that the building it gives is bad.

    In this case what it should go is give a special upgrade to the Chief's Hut which is identical in every way except it should not cost money. The Chief's Hut should upgrade to this special version and any dependencies on the building also need to carry over

    There are a number of wonders like this which should do this. Two national wonders that come quickly to mind are the Strategic Grain Reserve (granary) and National Library service (library).

    The point of these wonders is to get efficiencies of scale but you don't. With some it costs even more as the wonder also costs to maintain.
     

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