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New Heroes

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by ls612, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    From my Unit's Thread;

    SO suggested that I make a new thread for this discussion. Post away!
     
  2. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    From another thread:

     
  3. ls612

    ls612 Deity Moderator

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    @SO: I think that we should stay with the current hero system for now, for two reasons;

    1. The AI knows how to use Heroes at the present, and actually uses them effectively:eek:. Koshling has said that any large-scale revision of the system would require new AI scripts, and I personally am fine with the current system for now. That said, I am totally in favor of revising the Heroes after we get all caught up with Cultures and Heroes, and am working on a framework for such and overhaul.

    2. As it works now, we have a Major hero, which can build an Achievement after it is done in combat, and a Minor hero, which can 'only' become an in-city GP. I think that some of the new heroes for the new cultures should be totally non-combat, and instead provide benefits to the city they are in, via the Property system. What I mean by that is that we could have a few 'hero' properties, the ones that come to mind now are Administrative, Inspirational, and Industrial. These properties would have sources in certain Heroes, and would be spread over trade networks. If a city has x amount of that property, say Administration, they would get a beneficial triggered building, IE something like "Administration (Excellent)", similar to how Crime works now but in a positive fashion. These noncombat heroes could be left around to rack up the property benefits, and could sooner or later be converted into an Achievement or a GP, depending on their level.

    Also, if anyone has suggestions for new Heroes, please post them here and I will make them, using graphics from existing Culture Units as appropriate or new graphics if they can be found.
     
  4. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I cant believe NO ONE has and ideas on NEW Heroes with the NEW Cultures, come everyone, this is a RALLYING POINT here, lets start thinking and writing here, thx.:)
     
  5. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    I still like my idea of each civ getting a hero version of the leaderhead they pick rather than getting multiple heroes from cultures.

    These hero units could upgrade over time and would be given at the start. They would be stronger than other units of its era, however if it dies it is dead.

    Perhaps as the unit upgrades you could have it upgrade into different unit types such as melee or mounted. Likewise the higher the unit the more powerful building they can special build. This if you build a special building early it might benefit you for the time but it you hold off until later a better building could be made. But you risk the unit of dying.

    In a sense the hero is like your own personal avatar.

    EDIT: Or maybe death or upgrade could be like having it passed on to your offspring like a royal linage.
     
  6. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    The LH stuff, i definitely like.
     
  7. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I like them being linked to cultures. It gives a strong incentive to contuinue to strive for new cultures throughout the game, both for obtaining your own heroes (MUCH more so than other unique units which I actually find are often useless by the time you can get the cultures), and to deny them to your opponents.

    The place to start is probably not poeple trying to suggest new heroes out of the blue, so to speak, but by enumerating the cultrures that still need them as a list, which people can then suggest historical figures to try to fill them in, much as was done to complete the list of required resources to be able to build the cultures in the first place.
     
  8. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    Good point.
     
  9. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    What about both then? What if there were heroes (linked to cultures) and an upgradable Avatar unit that is given to you at the beginning of the game and increases the longer you keep the unit alive.
     
  10. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Fine by me. I am just pushing to get the (existing) hero mechanic balanced out a bit more across cultures right now. I have no problem with a new class of civ-hero also.
     
  11. Hanny

    Hanny Chieftain

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    A sort of UU at start you mean.

    If it started out as zero movement,and gained movement later in game, by promotions, and had a high def, low attack value, it would help prevent early game conquest of AI`s.

    mil building line could increase the base rate of exp the unit receives while in the city, and thus allow it to gain promotions.
     
  12. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Well it would not be so unique since everyone would get one. But over time as you play the game it would become more unique to your game.
     
  13. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    OK, here are your first Heroes units i need for the Apache Civ:
     
  14. Sgtslick

    Sgtslick Chieftain

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    Are you guys 100% sure that AI uses the agricultural bonus/ science bonus/ trade bonus etc from there hero units.. they should automatically spend the hero on one of these bonuses (if available) and never use him/her for fight, coz i've never seen them use them for this and im pretty sure you an check with the projects/wonders list. This could be another reason why AI is so easy atm.
     
  15. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Yes, though if the hero is militarily much their most powerful unit they will use it militarily first and only 'settle' it if it survives until they have somewhat comparable other military (unless they achieve sufficient scale that the achievement benefit outwieghs the gap in military strength).

    Obviously this decision involves a comparison of the benefit of the achievement vs the military power at the time, and its quite possible that the conversion between those two needs a little tweaking, so if you see an AI using a hero militarily when you think it really shouldn't be, post the save and we can take a look at the values it calculates in that save.
     
  16. Sgtslick

    Sgtslick Chieftain

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    Personally i would never use it militarily coz once u get a few of these achievements going they are incredibly powerful. Unless im about to lose a key city or something or losing a war badly, its just not worth it to waste them as a unit.

    Also because this is a turned based strategy game, if I get certain achievements 100 turns before you do, thats 100 turns i have +1 food on all sea squares for example.
     
  17. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Well, in my current game, I have 6 cities and a strength 12 (base strength, but he also gets hero super-promotions) hero, when the best military is basically archers. He is FAR more valuable to me coupled with a great commander in the field than the CURRENT benefit from any achievement. Obviously as I scale up to more cities (and get better military) this situation will change, but its at least a rational choice o use him militarily for a while, even if it's a debateable one. Obviously if the unit in question isn't very significantly more powerful than oher military, or the civ scale was somwhat larger, the equation would change, but essentailly that is the balance the AI tries to calculate. Examples where poeple can see specific heroes and beleive the AI has not made a rational choice are very welcome, because it probably needs tuning (comparing military value to achievement value is a bit apples to oranges so obviously I might not have the convesion set right).
     
  18. Sgtslick

    Sgtslick Chieftain

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    i think early ancient is the only good example of where you should use them for military. I've rarely gotten one this early b4 tho usually get strength 12 or 14 when longbows and swords and stuff but they can die easily if you are not careful.
     
  19. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    I agree at that point, and its the evaluation of the cross-over from when the risk (of not keeping them alive to later found achievements) outwieghs the benefit that is the question. I **think** the AI is getting this about right, but please post saves if you see what you believe to be arguable counter-examples.
     
  20. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I am still waiting for these:confused:
     

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