King Jason
Fleece-bearer
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But it has been said numerous times that civ5 is more moddable than 4, how would removing the moddability of an entire aspect of the game make that statement remotely true?
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But it has been said numerous times that civ5 is more moddable than 4, how would removing the moddability of an entire aspect of the game make that statement remotely true?
Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
I have to agree with King Jason: the idea that we will not be able to mod civs would make most modding impossible: era based scenarios/mods, fantasy mods, etc. . .
They almost certainly have plans for DLC, but we don't know what form they will take. It could be single civs, civ packs, map packs, mini-expansions, full expansions, or all of the above.
It's a bit insulting to suggest that the developer's work is worth less than a penny. I'd guess a price of $2 to $5 for a single civ, less for bunndles. I highly doubt they will offer much DLC for free, those days are behind us. The free content will come from mods, and I'm sure we'll see some very good mods from this community.
It's a bit insulting to suggest that the developer's work is worth less than a penny. I'd guess a price of $2 to $5 for a single civ, less for bunndles. I highly doubt they will offer much DLC for free, those days are behind us. The free content will come from mods, and I'm sure we'll see some very good mods from this community.
You are convincing me. I'm still trying to imagine just how it is they're going to prevent people from simply modding copies of the DLC civ/s. I'm especially concerned about how they will prevent the situation where DLC civs become pirated. If they (civs) are easily moddable, it would suggest they have a simple file structure of some sort or there is a publicly available encryptor (but not decryptor). Is it going to be the case that modded civs take a different form (file-wise) than official civs (where protecting intellectual property is important)?
Is Steam going to be checking for the presence of unauthorised material in your mods folder? (i.e. copyrighted material you haven't purchased the license to use e.g. official Babylon civ.)
My head is spinning with questions about how this will work. It's the reason that how modding will work is still near the top of my list of things I'm eager to learn about civ5.
Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
Several points to that:
1) the community has never advocated, accepted, or encouraged those kinds of mods in the past (mods that added BtS concepts to vanilla, for instance), why would we start now? I doubt CFC would host the mod, since it would violate the code of conduct. If the major fan sites won't host it and Steam won't host it, it's pretty much a non-issue for them. It won't reach that many civvers.
2) the only thing about the civs (any of them) that would be protected under copyright would be the graphics (leader, unit, ub, etc...) - the data itself (flavors, stats, effects, names, etc...) are not - just like you cannot copyright a recipe, you cannot protect numbers. If someone puts out a Babylon civ with different graphics, why would Firaxis care? It won't be their Babylon - and if the modder is going to go through all the trouble of creating new leader animations, who's to say they'll even want to make it look the same? As a modder, if your art & animations are as good as Firaxis's, you'll probably want to make different choices regarding costume, setting, and mannerisms anyway.
3) If they have no plans to continue to sell Babylon (individually) after release, they aren't really losing anything. . .
1) the community has never advocated, accepted, or encouraged those kinds of mods in the past (mods that added BtS concepts to vanilla, for instance), why would we start now? I doubt CFC would host the mod, since it would violate the code of conduct. If the major fan sites won't host it and Steam won't host it, it's pretty much a non-issue for them. It won't reach that many civvers.
2) the only thing about the civs (any of them) that would be protected under copyright would be the graphics (leader, unit, ub, etc...) - the data itself (flavors, stats, effects, names, etc...) are not - just like you cannot copyright a recipe, you cannot protect numbers. If someone puts out a Babylon civ with different graphics, why would Firaxis care? It won't be their Babylon - and if the modder is going to go through all the trouble of creating new leader animations, who's to say they'll even want to make it look the same? As a modder, if your art & animations are as good as Firaxis's, you'll probably want to make different choices regarding costume, setting, and mannerisms anyway.
3) If they have no plans to continue to sell Babylon (individually) after release, they aren't really losing anything. . .
Thyrrwyn, what about personal mods? What if I wanted to copy Bablyon but not actually distribute it? If it only took copying the files off the computer of someone with the DE, it would just become a matter of people distributing it locally rather than hosting it on the internet. This could even be a likely scenario assuming the DE content forever stays exclusive to those people who pre-ordered - surely that is going to be a tiny subset of the people who will eventually actually want the Babylon civ.
I certainly am not suggesting that sites like civfanatics would suddenly start allowing hosting of such mods though I am much less certain of other file-sharing services on the internet.
I certainly am not suggesting that sites like civfanatics would suddenly start allowing hosting of such mods though I am much less certain of other file-sharing services on the internet.
Krill
Deity
Custom DRM that forces all downloads to go via steam?
It depends on how that central community hub is constructed.I admit I'm being seriously paranoid here, but the whole DLC/mossing issue is schizophrenic.
Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
They have specifically said (several times) that mods will still be able to be distributed through the traditional channels, such as sites like CFC, Apolyton, etc...
Krill
Deity
That's cool then. 
I foresee Steam possibly bricking accounts if DLC gets hacked and redistributed by outside channels though.
I foresee Steam possibly bricking accounts if DLC gets hacked and redistributed by outside channels though.
Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
@PieceOfMind: (note that this is all speculation) if they are never planning on distributing Babylon individually after the release date, local distribution is not a concern - they lose nothing (except, possibly the opportunity to offer similar incentives in the future).
If they are planning on including it in the first expansion, they still lose nothing, since the expansion will include (presumably) much more than just Babylon.
If they are planning on including it in the first expansion, they still lose nothing, since the expansion will include (presumably) much more than just Babylon.
Well, maybe they allow modding civs and still plan on selling them.
If they do new unit art, leader cinematic and voice recording, they can well sell it for 1€ and players would buy it even benig able to mod civs.
I think this is what will happen.
If they do new unit art, leader cinematic and voice recording, they can well sell it for 1€ and players would buy it even benig able to mod civs.
I think this is what will happen.
Krill
Deity
$1/civ download (plus other stuff), when the download is available to millions makes a lot of sense; while in theory I hate the idea of DLC, that costs around the same as an XP, so isn't really that bad. $5 a civ? now that is overpriced.
There is an argument that IF diplomacy with an AI depends on understanding the diplomacy screen with the animated art, that while most players could mod civs, they couldn't fully integrate them into the game on the level that Firaxis could. This would be an ideal way in which to justify paid for DLC and yet still provide modding to the customers.
Only problem as far as I can see? why would MP players care about hte diplomacy aspect? What is in it for them? And as 2K have identified the MP scene as a new market to exploit, so pissing them offer while they aren't hooked is not a smart move.
Dunkah
Emperor
The thing that I would be worried about as far as paying for Civs is much the same as what happens with table-top wargames. The army/faction/era/codex books they come out with are slightly more powerful or have a new special ability that makes the players crave that race/army/civilization and after a couple of them come out you get a power creep where whatever the latest greatest civ is... it's the most powerful!
Aramel
Warlord
I don't think there are enough multiplayer users for that to matter. In single player having the "best" civ doesn't really matter as much; sales would be driven much more by unique and interesting civs, not raw power.
Krill
Deity
It matters if that is one market that 2K want to sell the game to.
GoodSarmatian
Jokerfied Western Male
- Joined
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Ah well, DLC.
My usual policy is to completely ignore it until everything comes in a reasonably cheap package.
If Take 2 are going to try and nickle and dime us for new civs my bet is the extra civs (including Babylon) will all get included in the proper expansion.
My usual policy is to completely ignore it until everything comes in a reasonably cheap package.
If Take 2 are going to try and nickle and dime us for new civs my bet is the extra civs (including Babylon) will all get included in the proper expansion.
Gre_Magus
Manet
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2005
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- 273
Creative Assembly put out a bunch of "special units" as DLC for Empire:Total war. This seems like an analogous situation to 2k putting out civs as DLC. Now, people certainly still mod their own units in that game, both as stand alone mods and as part of larger conversions. Does anyone know whether anyone has "copied" the official DLC units and whether CA responded in any way?
Yeah, really, thanks to the people who actually took their wallets out and paid for piece-by-piece units really. This is helping
Takeda
Warlord
I don't get all this fretting over DLC 
As long as it isn't gratuitous and it doesn't unbalance or cripple the core gameplay in anyway I don't really care about it. If you don't want to be nickle and dimed for new civs, then just wait.
I'm sure they'll be re-released as compilations or as part of a later expansion pack. Unless we hear about something truly awful and gamebreaking in the works this is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
As long as it isn't gratuitous and it doesn't unbalance or cripple the core gameplay in anyway I don't really care about it. If you don't want to be nickle and dimed for new civs, then just wait.
I'm sure they'll be re-released as compilations or as part of a later expansion pack. Unless we hear about something truly awful and gamebreaking in the works this is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.
As someone who plays a lot of games and buys many games a month, I have to pick my DLC very carefuly. And really, I bought DLC for maybe only 2-3 games out of like a hundred at this point.
For me, the invention of DLC basically means that my purchases come with a missing finger, and/or that good value expansion packs for the games I actually liked most are starting to be rarer and rarer, lost into DLC hell.
For me, the invention of DLC basically means that my purchases come with a missing finger, and/or that good value expansion packs for the games I actually liked most are starting to be rarer and rarer, lost into DLC hell.
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