[BTS] New Isolated Immortal Shadow Game With Zara + Confusing Start

[CGQ]

It's that time again folks! This time with a start that has me absolutely stumped!

Spoiler What to do? :

And here is our start!



I added an extra AI because, eh...why not?

Which way to move my scout? How do I know where I should move my initial scout/warrior in general for other games? Is SIP feasible?

So much fish...yet no fishing or AGRI (for AH) so worker first seems pointless since he'll have nothing to do.

I'm thinking if SIP, Tech Fishing while building warrior then WB for Fish, then Settler/Worker at Size 3??

 

[krikav]

For coastal starts with a 3F tile, where you have seafood but don't know fishing, one option is to grow to size2 while teching fishing, then building the boats at pop2, here that would be 5 hammer per turn for a 6 turn workboat.
Hard to tell, does SIP kill the fish? If so, settlement 1W or 1E might be OK.
Lots of forest... Zara is ORG so half-price lighthouse, maybe GLH is an option.
Jumping up on either PH and tech AH is also an option, green sheep is a nice resource.
Straight BW is also concievable..
Extremly hard to tell if any option is superior or inferior to the others.

Looks like a peninsula in the east, I would move scout to the sheep first and think again.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

For coastal starts with a 3F tile, where you have seafood but don't know fishing, one option is to grow to size2 while teching fishing, then building the boats at pop2

Yes, this is very good advice. It gives the most food when the workboat is done.
The alternative is to start on a worker at 0F and then switch on to a workboat. It is not very good, whether you still complete the workboat at size 2 (spend 8 turns growing) or head straight into workboat, still at 0F (8T to completion). Getting to 5H asap makes up for the time it takes to research Fishing.

1E might be OK

I think I would do that. Scout goes West. The peninsula/island is likely very short to the East. Unlocking the stronger tile makes the workboat investment a lot better, despite losing the sheep for 3 turns.

Straight BW is also concievable..

Fishing first is a given, here.

One thing with Fishing starts is that you don't want too early of a worker : without the techs : no worker.
The other thing with Fishing starts is that you don't want to over invest into workboats : there's no need to build 3 workboats. There's likely no need to even build 2 unless you have shared tiles (which you could have). Workboats are lost production. So, you want to transition asap to workers/settlers. You just delay those enough until you're ready for land economy. That is to say, until you have Fishing + the first techs (Bronze, most notably).

 

[jmas]

I appreciate this thread. Unfortunately I started a game yesterday that was relevant. With Asoka/India, I had (Edit) Clams but no Fish. I know that Crab+Clam are not valued as highly on this forum as Fish, so I opted to go Agri --> AH planning to build a farm to the south of the city, on a tile where it can probably be shared. I have Grass Edit: Pig so there's a 3F tile. Going Fishing first for a Clam was certainly possible, and perhaps it would have been better. As it turned out there is a Horse (not pictured) where I was building the farm, so those worker turns were wasted.

Spoiler :

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ I would think that this is another case of Fishing first and... you make a good case for it.
You should try Krikav's line (grow to 2 ; probably on Stonehenge if you're going Workboat -> Worker, so you don't lose production on a warrior).
Do you need the second workboat ? It sort of depends on the surroundings. One thing is sure : it is better chopped than slow-built.
People will widely agree that coastal starts are the hardest to manage, and the slower to start, so... Don't worry.

I know that Crab+Clam are not valued as highly on this forum as Fish

On this : It's mostly : crabs/clams are not better than farmed floodplains.
Crabs/clams are 4 production (towards workers/settlers), so they're better than green farms but no better than farmed floodplains.
However, workboats are 1-times-use. Workers are repeatable. If you can have an active worker over a 1-time workboat, then you should choose to do so (roading doesn't count ).

 

[CGQ]

For coastal starts with a 3F tile, where you have seafood but don't know fishing, one option is to grow to size2 while teching fishing, then building the boats at pop2, here that would be 5 hammer per turn for a 6 turn workboat.
Hard to tell, does SIP kill the fish? If so, settlement 1W or 1E might be OK.
Lots of forest... Zara is ORG so half-price lighthouse, maybe GLH is an option.
Jumping up on either PH and tech AH is also an option, green sheep is a nice resource.
Straight BW is also concievable..
Extremly hard to tell if any option is superior or inferior to the others.

Looks like a peninsula in the east, I would move scout to the sheep first and think again.

Spoiler Moved Scout :

Scout revealed Corn:


What do ya'll think?

 

[krikav]

1N of sheep on the PH, 12 turn worker and tech agri.
Second city can go 3S of that, and third 2E of current settler location.

Don't go AH after agri, farm the sheep instead.

Looks like a nice cool map!

 

[CGQ]

1N of sheep on the PH, 12 turn worker and tech agri.
Second city can go 3S of that, and third 2E of current settler location.

Don't go AH after agri, farm the sheep instead.

Looks like a nice cool map!

Spoiler Played to Turn 23 and ran into problem :

Settled capital:


Found more fish!


Problem is...nothing for worker to do? Farm 1S of lake? The pic below is if I don't tech fishing after AH. If I tech Fishing first then nothing for worker for 7 turns

 

[krikav]

Thats OK, some idle worker turns in the begining is no big deal.
It's only 4 turns until you can start chopping!
and yeah, putting some turns into a farm south of the lake is better than nothing, but barely.
Don't finish the farm, be ready so you stand in a forest the turn BW is in.

 

[CGQ]

Thats OK, some idle worker turns in the begining is no big deal.
It's only 4 turns until you can start chopping!
and yeah, putting some turns into a farm south of the lake is better than nothing, but barely.
Don't finish the farm, be ready so you stand in a forest the turn BW is in.

Spoiler Turn 34 :

Put 3 turns into farm 1S of lake then chopped forest where the next city would be settled:


Settled 2nd City:


Turn 34: Fishing arrives. I put one turn into warrior and will switch to WB. 2nd Chop went into 2nd worker for cap and next chop will go to WB:


View of land:


Is The Wheel good or should I go AH now? When to build next settler? I forgot to switch to slavery

 

[Nick723]

A few comments / suggestions from my side:
- I’m not sure it was worth growing to size 3 before building the settler. You only have two good tiles, so size 2 is probably better next time.
- your warrior has gone a bit far exploring. I suggest move him back to 1E of the wheat. This way he fog busts the southern area.

A few choices on next steps I think. This map is likely isolation as you’ve not met anyone so far.

1. You are light on barb defense. At least one more warrior is needed urgently to fog bust the area west of the marble. Normally at this point in an isolation game I would prioritise making the island safe - hard to know how big it is but it’s possible you could secure the whole island with 4-5 warriors. The other option is to tech archery.

2. GLH is an option, but it’s a weaker one in isolation so I would not propose this route. If you do go this route, then sailing / masonry would be next techs (perhaps after archery, as chops won’t be going into warriors).

3. Instead I would focus in on your main problem - happy cap. I would tech towards monarchy (go through poly). It’s possible you may be able to oracle monarchy, but even if not, it’s your main priority. You have many cities with double food which are essentially wasted without the opportunity to grow.

 

[CGQ]

A few comments / suggestions from my side:
- I’m not sure it was worth growing to size 3 before building the settler. You only have two good tiles, so size 2 is probably better next time.
- your warrior has gone a bit far exploring. I suggest move him back to 1E of the wheat. This way he fog busts the southern area.

A few choices on next steps I think. This map is likely isolation as you’ve not met anyone so far.

1. You are light on barb defense. At least one more warrior is needed urgently to fog bust the area west of the marble. Normally at this point in an isolation game I would prioritise making the island safe - hard to know how big it is but it’s possible you could secure the whole island with 4-5 warriors. The other option is to tech archery.

2. GLH is an option, but it’s a weaker one in isolation so I would not propose this route. If you do go this route, then sailing / masonry would be next techs (perhaps after archery, as chops won’t be going into warriors).

3. Instead I would focus in on your main problem - happy cap. I would tech towards monarchy (go through poly). It’s possible you may be able to oracle monarchy, but even if not, it’s your main priority. You have many cities with double food which are essentially wasted without the opportunity to grow.

Spoiler Played to Turn 46 :

Went back and replayed last few turns. This time I grew settler at size 2. Good advice, I was able to settle 1st city about 2-3 turns sooner:


Will go the Monarchy Route. Chops going into first WB and will chop 2nd Settler. Chop will go into Warriors after:


Another warrior out then 2nd WB for fish. 2nd City settled which will chop WB for the other fish after creative culture pop:


What do I do with my workers now? Still can't build roads.


Welp I just now realized I accidentally teched Meditation instead of Poly. Oops.

 

[Nick723]

Meditation is no big deal. It’s actually slightly cheaper than polytheism. 2 reasons to favour poly over meditation:
1. In isolation, it allows you the option to tech code of laws without messing up the astronomy bulb
2. It opens up temple of Artemis failgold and the aesthetics / literature route. As you have marble here that might be nice

Has the oracle been built? Workers can prechop for it if not. Else I’d maybe switch to throw in wheel / pottery before continuing.

 

[Fippy]

Looking at your land i'd have to disagree with Nick723 in one point..Meditation is bad (while he mentioned no biggie).
Caste and CoL looks important. With Org CHs are pretty good in Iso, all savings help.
But more significant, what can be done other than running many specialists in those cities? Cottages without rivers or FIN are an afterthought imo.

If you guys don't have different plans i'd reload before medi if possible.

 

[krikav]

Marble on ice, that cannot be settled upon.
Might as well not be there at all.

 

[CGQ]

Marble on ice, that cannot be settled upon.
Might as well not be there at all.

Even with the fish that I can get in 5 turns with creative?

 

[CGQ]

Looking at your land i'd have to disagree with Nick723 in one point..Meditation is bad (while he mentioned no biggie).
Caste and CoL looks important. With Org CHs are pretty good in Iso, all savings help.
But more significant, what can be done other than running many specialists in those cities? Cottages without rivers or FIN are an afterthought imo.

If you guys don't have different plans i'd reload before medi if possible.

Spoiler Played to Turn 53 :

I went back to tech POLY instead. Pre-chopped for Oracle. Hopefully will get Monarchy with it.


What do I do next? Keep building warriors and Workboats?

 

[krikav]

Even with the fish that I can get in 5 turns with creative?

Yes, you can get it into culture.
But roading it and making the quarry will take a ton of workerturns, and the city is garbage too, and the tile.
I would just ignore the marble if I where playing, it's in such an off location.

 

[CGQ]

Yes, you can get it into culture.
But roading it and making the quarry will take a ton of workerturns, and the city is garbage too, and the tile.
I would just ignore the marble if I where playing, it's in such an off location.

Spoiler Played to turn 68 :

Pre-chopped forests around capital for Oracle. After Warriors I will whip a WB in the two southern cities to finish sea food:


Started teching writing because I figure Libraries will come in handy I suppose:


Oracle about to be finished. Will whip settler:


Going for TW>Pottery. What then? Sailing?


Turn 68: 3rd Settler out. Where to settle next?

 

[Harv]

The ice marble? I was just explaining on another thread this is one of the frustrating things I find about the map scripts I have used in my limited career. In this case, your marble is on a glacier. Copper is in tundra. Stone is in desert.

Meanwhile I just saw on the Ice Age map Cows on a Flood Plain.