[R&F] New Leaks (new civ Cree, new alt leader Chandragupta Maurya of India)

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The only real way to know if Canada is 100% done for is if the Cree City list contains Canadian City names. If they have Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, or Saskatoon or even smaller Northern cities that could very well be the final nail in the coffin for Canada.

Also, is the leader in the number 4 spot on the leaked image in the top-right corner already known or could he/she be the Cree leader. I see a red band around the fact and I was looking at Cree photos last night and saw this.
 
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Teddy was a great choice and I don't think America needs an alt at all. Perhaps some people think his LUA isn't good? Which I also don't understand. It's perfectly fine.

There only reason why certain Civs would need an alternative leader is to showcase a different type of winning strategy as well as a different facet of that civ's history. It works for India because Gandhi is geared towards peaceful religious victories and lived in the atomic era, while Chandragupta Maurya is from the Classical Era and could work with a militaristic or economic bonus. Much like how Pericles is focused on diplomacy while Gorgo is a no-nonsense warmonger.

Really, the best candidate Civs for an alt leader in a future expansion would be Spain, France, Egypt, Germany, Mongolia and England, who all have more to offer than they're offering right now.
 
The only real way to know if Canada is 100% done for is if the Cree City list contains Canadian City names. If they have Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, or Saskatoon or even smaller Northern cities that could very well be the final nail in the coffin for Canada.
Edmonton and Calgary are not Cree names.
 
The only real way to know if Canada is 100% done for is if the Cree City list contains Canadian City names. If they have Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, or Saskatoon or even smaller Northern cities that could very well be the final nail in the coffin for Canada.
I would be surprised too if some of those that you mentioned wouldn't be on it, and that would be another reason. I wouldn't have minded a Canadian Civ anyway, but with their introduction I would be perfectly fine with them not being added at all if this is the direction that they are going.
 
I have some pretty serious objections to his leadership, but I have those with... most US presidents. Comes with living in the place. The entire "big stick" agenda sums up my objections pretty succinctly; Teddy was an imperialist warmonger, the North American continent was not our divine right, and the Spanish-American war was insanely terrible.

I say this only to point out that terming him "innocuous" politically is, to put it mildly, a misnomer. At least in my assessment. That said, assessing civ leaders' presence in the games in terms of my own political leanings isn't something I'm interested in. I have a bit of an issue with how Teddy's ability seems to be based a lot in stomach churning things about his political legacy, national parks aside, but I'm not going to get too worked up about it. I think it'd be extremely gross if a 20th century fascist was uncritically put into the game, but that's about the extent I'm willing to take my politics into my civ playing.

And I agree that America is hardly the most urgent problem that could be solved with an alternate leader. Egypt seems to be next in line, now that the most egregious case of India has been finally remedied.

All true, but I’d argue it makes Teddy the perfect leader to represent the “American Empire” in a Civilization game. I’m also not sure being an “imperialist warmonger” is a barrier to inclusion when you look at his fellow players, all the way from Alexander through Trajan to Genghis Khan and Victoria (or at least the empire she was the figurehead of).

I wonder how Chandragupta Maurya will fit into the game mechanically. I’ve had interesting ideas for Ashoka’s leadership ability, but my knowledge of his predecessor is sketchy at best.
 
Edmonton and Calgary are not Cree names.
Montreal, Brantford or Buffalo aren't indigenous names either, but the Iroquois had them as city names in CivV.
 
I have some pretty serious objections to his leadership, but I have those with... most US presidents. Comes with living in the place. The entire "big stick" agenda sums up my objections pretty succinctly; Teddy was an imperialist warmonger, the North American continent was not our divine right, and the Spanish-American war was insanely terrible.

You can take that position on the Spanish-American War, but it wasn't his war. He wasn't President. He did appoint the Pacific fleet to intercept the Spanish fleet in Manila, but that was smart policy since war was declared (technically Spain declared war on the U.S. and then Congress back-dated their declaration to declare first). People in San Francisco feared the Spanish fleet and the U.S. Navy had no idea how bad the Spanish fleet in the Pacific had gotten. Then he resigned his position as Assistant Secretary of the Navy to fight in Cuba. If you want to fault him for supporting the war, fine. If you want to criticize the post-war occupation of the Philippines, sure. But he didn't create the Spanish-American War.

I think the Roosevelt Corollary was justifiable in the circumstances. Britain was going to shell Venezuela to collect debts. Out of courtesy to the U.S., they asked Roosevelt for permission. Roosevelt initially said that the U.S. would not intervene if European powers wanted to "punish" American nations for "bad behavior." This was insanely unpopular among the American people, so Roosevelt announced that the U.S. would take the "police role" in the Western Hemisphere. It essentially replaced the British in that role. Given the circumstances, it was probably justified, but the policy itself was abused, both by Roosevelt and future Presidents.

That's not a great defense, but I think his role negotiating the conclusion of the Russo-Japanese War should be looked at as generally positive. There are criticisms of it, but I'm not sure a different arbitrator would have done better.
 
1. Iroquois could still be a possibility.
2. Navajo or Hopi for Southwest.
3. Cherokee or Southeastern U.S. tribe
I saw this mentioned above, and I would like all of these civs.

In regards to the next civ to get an alternate leader, I want a alternate leader for China most of all. It just makes since seeing that they have had such a long lasting history with so many different warring states over time. Especially in regards to TSL, it would make since for there to be an Alternate Indian and Chinese leader because they take up their own massive areas and have historically had tons of different states. Meanwhile for European civs, yes some of them used to be broken up into tons of states, but its just going to make TSL maps even more crowded in Europe when I would rather just see new civs in Europe if we are going to be crowding it even more.
 
You can take that position on the Spanish-American War, but it wasn't his war. He wasn't President. He did appoint the Pacific fleet to intercept the Spanish fleet in Manila, but that was smart policy since war was declared (technically Spain declared war on the U.S. and then Congress back-dated their declaration to declare first). People in San Francisco feared the Spanish fleet and the U.S. Navy had no idea how bad the Spanish fleet in the Pacific had gotten. Then he resigned his position as Assistant Secretary of the Navy to fight in Cuba. If you want to fault him for supporting the war, fine. If you want to criticize the post-war occupation of the Philippines, sure. But he didn't create the Spanish-American War.

I think the Roosevelt Corollary was justifiable in the circumstances. Britain was going to shell Venezuela to collect debts. Out of courtesy to the U.S., they asked Roosevelt for permission. Roosevelt initially said that the U.S. would not intervene if European powers wanted to "punish" American nations for "bad behavior." This was insanely unpopular among the American people, so Roosevelt announced that the U.S. would take the "police role" in the Western Hemisphere. It essentially replaced the British in that role. Given the circumstances, it was probably justified, but the policy itself was abused, both by Roosevelt and future Presidents.

That's not a great defense, but I think his role negotiating the conclusion of the Russo-Japanese War should be looked at as generally positive. There are criticisms of it, but I'm not sure a different arbitrator would have done better.

I hope I wasn't implying that I thought he was the president at the time of the Spanish American war; I was meaning to refer to the presence of the Rough Riders in his leader ability. I would absolutely have much more of a problem with McKinley as US leader than Teddy; pointing to one actor as the cause of any historical trend is certainly a facile way of looking at things, but even still I regard McKinley as maybe the most ultimately responsible for the escalation of US imperial power during the late 19th/early 20th century. But I very much do fault Teddy for the things you named nonetheless.

I guess where I part ways with you on the Roosevelt Corollary is that I think the abuse was the more important part of the equation. But that's a bigger discussion and I don't want to derail the thread too much more lol.
 
Interesting choice and best of all, no Canada civ.
Yep, had to know that someone would come in and slam Canada. *Sigh*
Why do people always take it as 'slamming' a country to point out that it's a poor choice for the game?

Because you made no effort to distinguish, or allay the negative connotations you'd created. In fact it's difficult to imagine a worse way to have worded it, which reads as intentional to anybody with any sort of sense.
And now you're arguing against anyone who took it poorly telling them their interpretation is invalid.

This kind of behaviour is about as poorly developed as the bully who grabs a kid's hand and starts smacking him with it saying "why are you hitting yourself?".

Most of us presume ignorance before malice, and I know many of you struggle with basic courtesy -something in your food has always been my suspicion, growing up so close to the border- so I extend this lesson simply, and in good faith.
 
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I think I'm evolving on the thought of more nomadic tribes being included as civilizations.

Obviously in real life they never formed into proper civilizations, but this is an alternate history game. The point of the game is to ask "what if". What if these tribes had access to materials and trade that European, Middle Eastern, and East/South Asian civilizations had access to? Perhaps they could have formed magnificent empires. We all know the deck was stacked against them due to isolation and lack of good animals for domestication and less crop variety in the Americas.

But then including them with strengths based on that nomadic life they lived is to keep the real alternative in the game ahead of the what if anyway. To me you can only what if so far. Yeah, part of the fun of Civ is an alternate history; but another big part is including the history we know in the game.

I find it ironic that one of the civilizations most known for its mysterious rise and fall is not included in the expansion called Rise and Fall.

Ain't that all of them except the current nation states?

I assume it would be like the Greek City List, where Pataliputra would just take the spot of Delhi.
Also Patna which is on the City list is the modern name for Pataliputra.

Yeah, but Sparta is on Athens list and vise versa.
 
Because you made no effort to distinguish, or allay the negative connotations you'd created. In fact it's difficult to imagine a worse way to have worded it, which reads as intentional to anybody with any sort of sense.
And now you're arguing against anyone who took it poorly telling them their interpretation is invalid.

Would you leap to the same conclusion if the game was Crusader Kings and I was expressing relief that Canada wouldn't be in that, or stop to consider that maybe Canada just wouldn't be appropriate for that game? You aren't a new poster, so it also seems reasonable to expect that you specifically would be familiar with the extensive discussions on what is and is not thematically appropriate for a Civ game - and that there's a significant contingent, quite likely the majority, that doesn't feel 20th Century post-colonial states (whether you set the date at 1982, 1965 or 1931) fall within the game's remit. If there had been a vocal pro-Canada lobby it might have been worth qualifying my comment, but from everything said in relation to Canada speculation on the general R&F thread, the feeling that it wouldn't be a good choice appeared to be almost universal.

People with "any sort of sense" shouldn't be prone to leaping to conclusions even without this context, so I feel it's fully defensible to pick them up on it when it they do. In this particular case you don't have the option of pleading naivety as to the context. So yes, your interpretation is invalid.
 
Montreal, Brantford or Buffalo aren't indigenous names either, but the Iroquois had them as city names in CivV.
Is Ottawa a Cree word? Would they use that city? If they did that would mean Canada would definitely be out unless there was a different capital for a time.
 
Dream modus on.

What about the Cree representing Canada, Iroquiois and Navajo or Apache representing native Eastern America. Maya's and Aztecs representing Middle-America. The Taino (or Arawak) representing Caribbean. The Inca's, Muisca and Tupi representing Southern America.

I definitely want Inca's and Maya's and a debut of the Muisca and a Southwestern United States Tribe... The Cree making a debut in the game makes it more likely that the final game will have at least two native north American civs. If we would have had the Iroqouis now, i wouldn't have been so sure about that. If we get two more expansions or a bunch of DLC between the first and second expansion, than at least the appearance of Iroquiois or / (and) a SW- native American tribe is more likely. Though final game should at least have Maya's and Inca's, so if they are not yet in the game at that point, they should definitely be in. As a matter of fact, they should already have been in.

Africa and America needs a bit more love now (i definitely want all the staple packs of previous versions to return, Inca, Maya, Ethiopia, Mali, Carthage, Zulu, another native American civ and a debut of the Muisca.
 
Would you leap to the same conclusion if the game was Crusader Kings and I was expressing relief that Canada wouldn't be in that, or stop to consider that maybe Canada just wouldn't be appropriate for that game? You aren't a new poster, so it also seems reasonable to expect that you specifically would be familiar with the extensive discussions on what is and is not thematically appropriate for a Civ game - and that there's a significant contingent, quite likely the majority, that doesn't feel 20th Century post-colonial states (whether you set the date at 1982, 1965 or 1931) fall within the game's remit. If there had been a vocal pro-Canada lobby it might have been worth qualifying my comment, but from everything said in relation to Canada speculation on the general R&F thread, the feeling that it wouldn't be a good choice appeared to be almost universal.

People with "any sort of sense" shouldn't be prone to leaping to conclusions even without this context, so I feel it's fully defensible to pick them up on it when it they do. In this particular case you don't have the option of pleading naivety as to the context. So yes, your interpretation is invalid.

Did I say anything with regards to my opinion on Canada's inclusion?

Or was this just a generic response you had loaded up to fire at anyone who took your bait and decided to roll around in the mud with you?

So, not ignorance -malice, then.
 
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Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Odd. In gameplay terms there may have been other civs that needed one more (France high on the list, indeed), but England, Germany and Rome have some of the best leader choices for all that the portrayal of Victoria is atrocious.
To clarify, I meant potentially better than Chandragupta, not better than those Civilizations' current leaders, whom I'd agree are all excellent choices (though I'd also regard Gandhi as a genuinely deserving pick, and not merely a meme). I really wanted to see Louis IX or XIV for France, or Edward III for England, or Jefferson or Eisenhower for America. Chandragupta took one of their spots unfortunately.
 
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