Well, yes, they are displacing other candidates. And in some cases, there can be debate of the decision that went into such a process. I've seen folks lament not getting Kublai instead of Genghis last week. I think, though, a person can safely make the case for Genghis as the leader, and for reasons that have nothing to do with his identity profile. Good discussion to have. Now see, how can this discussion be draining for you? Given that your go-to response is to dismiss any point of view that doesn't align with a unilateralist "no-person-can-credibly-disagree-with-me" position as ridiculous, laughable, ludicrous, and other words synonymous with fun times, you gotta be have a rollicking good time. My impression is that there's no real fatigue or laughter influencing your behavior; I think you've fallen into the easy rut of snorting through your nose and raving derisively, and then acting like it's the other person's exasperating tactics driving you onto the low road. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm just catching you on a bad day. I'll just keep working the golden rule as best I can. Moderator Action: Please make your own argument, do not attack those you disagree with personally. This is trolling. leif Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889 At any rate, like I said before, I don't think you'll find any tremendous objection to Victoria, Isabella, or Cleopatra any more than you'll get a debate over Genghis versus Kublai. Those names have cache in their own right. The obvious picks are obvious for a reason. I think I can gather from your harangue that you're not familiar enough with Seonduk and Sejong to weigh the two, and do indeed wish to imply it's so subjective of a choice that it might as well be a toss-up, but when it comes to Sejong versus just about anyone else in Korean history, it does go beyond just "one more road". He invented the Korean language, for instance. Pretty good little tick to have in his column. So, either the contention is that we select a Seonduk because that's a leader who is sufficiently distinguished to eclipse an obvious pick like Sejong, and that begs the question of what makes her distinct. I don't expect you to provide an answer--you'll just resent and attack the question in some sort of straw man that will no doubt draw applause--but I am at least articulating for someone out there why there is indeed room for reasonable discussion of selection based on merit. It won't, of course, because all you're applauding is tub-thumping. And while tub-thumping is very satisfying when it lines up with one's own POV, it's not something that ever closes divides or puts discussion to rest. Don't kid yourself. It's not dousing other people's reckless flames. It's dumping a big ol' drum of gasoline. So, this will keep being a topic for discussion, and as long as it is discussed in a civil manner, open-minded people should welcome rather than try to shut it down.