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New map Southeast Asia (extra civs)?

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by phoenixfire7, Aug 25, 2020.

  1. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Warlord

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    Since there is a thread for Africa and India, I decided to make one for Southeast Asia.

    I played a mod with the big map and the Civilisations reborn civs (the Southeast Asian ones being Vietnam, Burma and Philippines) and Southeast Asia seemed to work really well in my Burma game. The other Southeast Asian civ that I have seen suggestions for is separate civs for Srivijaya and Majapahit rather than both being one Indonesian civ. Those 2 civs could also possibly be used to distinguish late game Malaysia from Indonesia.

    What are the thoughts on adding those 4 civs to the big map?
     
  2. Caesar Augustus

    Caesar Augustus Prince

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    Burma is a no-brainer if there's room, and I've always wanted to see Vietnam more fleshed out in civ. I'm iffy on Philippines because 1) I think it's kind of nice to have at least some "unclaimed" land around the edges of civs and 2) I'm not certain how they'd interact with the current game. As an AI I feel like they'd mostly just sit there until the Spanish conquered them for free, while as a player I'm not sure how you make yet another "chill on your archipelago and resist the Europeans when they show up" civ interesting. What do they aim to accomplish in Civ reborn?

    As far as separating Srivijaya and Majapahit my bias is toward keeping civs unified rather than breaking them apart into each polity, but given that Indonesia is not the most thrilling playthough it might be worth trying just to see if it makes the area more engaging.
     
  3. ShinobiHus92

    ShinobiHus92 Chieftain

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    Great idea! I think having Burma is a must since they quite have a history themselves also the Shwedagon Pagoda was build there. They can start as city states and later into the kingdom of Pagan. I'm on the same side with Caesar Augustus about the situation with the Philippines... However seeing Vietnam, Burma, Cambodia/Khmer and Thailand more fleshed out is something I would like to see.

    Also I think some of these civs can spawn way earlier for example right now Khmer spawn date is around 800 AD, but they can also start around the 50s AD (at the same time Korea also starts) starting as the Funan kingdom which was basically a proto-Khmer kingdom. With Burma however.. difficult to say they can begin as early city states (so that the Shwedagon Pagoda can be build earlier) or on a second thought can start around 850 AD as a full fledged civ since that was the moment that they unified the whole region there.

    Spoiler Pagan Kingdom/Empire :
    Pagan_Empire_--_Sithu_II.png


    Spoiler Funan Kingdom :
    funan.jpg




    I have no experience with the newly big map. My concern especially in the late game is that they eventually have less space to develop properly...
     
  4. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Warlord

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    Yes. I've just remembered how Khmer (Cambodia) turns into Vietnam when when Thailand spawns, which doesn't feel right because of the 2 different cultures.

    In civ reborn they are largely a money gathering civ with an interesting extra mechanic that naval units in foreign cities with pleased relations can establish an embassy which gives permanent contact with the civ and 2 gold per turn. They also have a goal to acquire happiness resources and a surprising amount of historical area to do so in (on normal map). AI Philippines usually do stick to their archipelago in current civ reborn but there are 2 side effects that I don't like as much: Manila is called Tondo for the whole game and Sulu is founded in the south which is a city I wouldn't found at all if I had the choice and it never end up getting taken by the Spanish. However, AI Philippines makes it harder for Indonesia to ahistorically settle the Philippines for their happiness resources UHV.

    That is why I am not a fan of civilisations reborn Southeast Asia in normal map because it is too cramped but there was plenty of space for all of those civs on the big map which is why my Burma game was so fun (that and the sick music that is only in that big map mod and not even in civilisations reborn)
     
  5. Caesar Augustus

    Caesar Augustus Prince

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    I kind of think that Indonesia SHOULD have to (or at least want to) end up with significant holding in the Philippines, if it's going for the historical victory (or just doing well as an AI). The two areas were AFAIK pretty well interconnected up until the Spanish takeover, with many Philippine polities having Indonesian roots, and a few like Sulu holding islands in both archipelagos.
     
  6. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Warlord

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    Yes but it makes the Indonesia game less boring because you'd have to conquer rather than settle. Plus Philippines only have archers defending so shouldn't be impossible to conquer
     
  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    What do you mean?
     
  8. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Warlord

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    There was some really good Burma (and possibly other Southeast Asian countries) music but I don't know the source
     
  9. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Which mod are you talking about?
     
  10. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Warlord

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  11. brett0007

    brett0007 Warlord

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    Splitting Srivijaya and Majapahit makes no sense, Majapahit emerged as a successor state from from the client kingdoms of Srivijaya. It was still part of the cultural continuity.
     
    hnrysml and LikeNothing like this.
  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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  13. ShinobiHus92

    ShinobiHus92 Chieftain

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    I think there are plenty of opportunities once the new map gets released. For me the most anticipated releases is the PS5 launch and the Dawn of Civilization v1.17 with it's brand new map and features :lol:

    Which mod is this? Is this Civilization reborn mod?
     
  14. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Warlord

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    It is in the big map and it also has the civilisations reborn civs. It has some other extra civs without UHVs and some without UUs or UBs. It also feels very shoddily thrown together and takes a long time to load games which is why I don't play it anymore
     
  15. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Thanks for bringing this to my attention. To say the least, I am not pleased that this exists and have asked the authors to take it down. I think I have been very explicit in the past that the map is a work in progress and not meant to be played on. I did not invest so much effort into developing this publicly for someone to take this work for their own personal project, especially if this happens seemingly deliberately behind my back. I hope this can be resolved amicably, but otherwise the damage is done, and I will have to rethink how I handle content that is still in development. For the time being, I have decided to delete the map branch from the remote repo, pending future developments. I would hate for things like this to ruin the experience for everyone else.
     
  16. LikeNothing

    LikeNothing Chieftain

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    It won't for me.

    In fact, I prefer the small map, and sincerely hope you continue to support a small map version of DoC after the big map becomes mainstream. IMHO much of the original RFC's charm (which DoC inherited) is that so much can happen on such a small map. Egypt's small rectangular core is like a 3x3 Rubik's Cube. If I want a big map I'd go play MEIOU and Taxes. BtS is not designed for maps of that resolution, and IMO the marginal benefits of a bigger map is quickly diminishing in any mod based on BtS.

    I am aware this is a minority opinion, but think you might want to know it exists.
     
  17. Steb

    Steb King

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    I empathize. I see that they have included e.g. the Olmec civ I created. I don't really care that they did, but I would have liked to know, at the very least.
     
  18. merijn_v1

    merijn_v1 Black Belt

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    Same for me.
     
  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Yes. I am not sure if I would have approved under optimal circumstances, but the fact that this happened without the consent or even notice of any of the contributors really made me have a negative view of this. In addition, the project is not a fork of DoC or any of its forks (like Civs Reborn). It's a plain reupload of the entire source code, erasing everyone's contribution history. Not exactly good form to put it nicely.
     
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  20. 1SDAN

    1SDAN Brother Lady

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    I was previously working on a big map version of my pre-DCR mod before Leoreth asked me politely to stop. That this person seemingly reused my mod for a purpose I specifically abandoned in favour of maintaining positive community relations while doing everything in their power to prevent both myself and especially Leoreth from finding out is honestly very very unkind. I am perfectly fine with the inclusion of aspects my mods in other mods, and while I prefer to be credited where credit is due I do not require nor expect it, but this goes beyond basic niceties of open source work and directly infringes the good will our modding community is built upon. If there were someone who'd fork and build upon the body and spirit of DCR I would absolutely welcome them in my absence from modding. But this destroyed the body of commit credits and desecrated the spirit of good will and moderately acceptable quality I built my mod upon. I'm sorry if I sound cartoonishly upset or something, but I am rather disturbed that there are members of our community that does not give to us the same good will, willingness to understand, and willful cooperation that we give to them.

    Hopefully this was a local copy uploaded for personal ease of access designed to not unduly stress us, but if that was so it should have absolutely been made private or otherwise invisible to those outside of the creator and maybe their friends.

    I'll also say on the topic of Tondo that I was unaware of these issues and would have absolutely fixed them if I was made aware of them when development was ongoing, I am very sorry for the trouble my errant oversight has caused.
     
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