new mintemen = super prachinas?

NukeAJS

King
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
850
Anyone try them out yet? They were already a unit you'd want a billion of, but their fast movement + golden age points + extra sight makes them super prachinas. The extra sight can basically assure that you'll get those golden age points.

Still, I don't think it'll be enough to lift America out off the bottom tier hole.

Has anybody tried them out? What's your take?
 

sadpickle

Chieftain
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Aug 29, 2013
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I like America's UA... sure, it doesn't translate into any real resources, but the strategic implications are enormous. Especially useful when you get Artillery and need that LOS on enemy cities. I suppose when you play Diety the lack of real bonuses is a killer, and having extra sight isn't that important (you already know every AI has massive armies and all the cool toys). But I can't play optimally so I stay away from deity anyway.
 

comatosedragon

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May 5, 2008
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Yes, I just finished last night, and even though I was one of the ones who always thought America was a strong civ to begin with, I feel the new Minuteman really push them in to the top of the mid-tier civs. Seriously.

I was able to use MM to great effect, and the GA bonus just kept me going, enough to steamroll my entire continent, without ever running to $$$$ problems. Of course, New York was right next to Kilimanjaro, so ... that helped too!
 

Princeofnigeria

The illustrious
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I always thought America was just fine as it was. I think this is too much. Especially when it makes the unit LITERALLY better than the Pachrina in every way AND comes far earlier.
 

civ54lyfe

Prince
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Dec 15, 2012
Messages
563
it's not too much, from the perspective that most of the playerbase poopoos on America's UA's. what i do find not great is that they directly ripped off another civ's UU and just pasted it onto Minutemen, just for the flavor/lazy factor. in general most people consider cheap Tile Buy and free Sentry promotion to be garbage yet imo they are underestimating these abilities in the early game especially. this is when you enjoy your earlier units seeing that barb camp, that captured Settler/Worker, that AI Worker, at a crucial turn time when they could be whacked or snatched. opportunity plays like that mean a lot more in the early game. Tile Buy is also considerably more utilizable than people here let on. now does this make America anything other than lower-mid/high bottom tier? no not really.
 

Deggial

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Usually, I don't like this "lazy design" reproval. This is the first time, I am afraid I have to use it, too.

I don't see the relation to Americas trait flavor, I don't like the copy from another (till now very special) UU. And all this, to enhanced a disputable inferior civ.

What I would have prefered was, for example a cheeper and/or faster settler (3 tiles movement and/or no movement penalty in rough terrain) that is capable to defend himself. Sure, this would be only usefull at the very beginning of the game. But America needs only a very minor buff - if any.
Maybe - maybe! - a higher city deffense in cities without walls would be a worthwhile idea, too.
 

Dentalfury

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Feb 7, 2011
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Yeah, it does seem a bit obvious they copy/pasted to make minuteman even more appealing in an effort to make America a more attractive choice.

I would have preferred something more unique. Such as "Immigrant Nation" - America receives a growth bonus of 20% during golden ages. A nice and broad bonus that would be well worth pursuing. However, would it be balanced for them to get 2 UA? Even though the sight bonus can be very situational.
 

Gort

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Nov 7, 2010
Messages
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However, would it be balanced for them to get 2 UA? Even though the sight bonus can be very situational.

They already have two UAs. +1 sight on all land units and half-price tile buying. I still don't see a great deal to recommend America, they're a grab bag of, "That's nice, I guess" abilities that come up for limited periods of time in specific situations. They get good scouts, but that period of the game passes quickly, and the Shoshone can make a playstyle out of that far better than they do.

+1 sight is nice enough in military applications (especially one artillery show up), but you can usually have another unit move up one hex, spot whatever you want to shell, shell it, then move the scouting unit back again. So +1 sight is nice, but not anything that holds a candle to Shaka's cheap promotions, or Germany's cheap army, or a real warmongering unit.

They get a fast musketman who generates golden age points. Not only is the musketman a not-particularly-good unit type in the first place, the "ignores terrain" aspect of him isn't always useful, and golden age points are not that valuable. Compare this to the Pracinha, whose golden age points are much more valuable since they get extra Tourism and Great People out of them. The Minuteman is just a lacklustre unit with a bunch of non-focused bonuses tacked on.

Then you get the B17. It's a bomber that's less likely to get shot down. Firstly, I can't remember a time when I was using bombers that I didn't have air-superiority. Sure, I wouldn't turn down extra evasion, but it's not a huge bonus. Secondly, the game's almost always decided by this point. The fact that you've got bombers at all tends to indicate that you're going to win, not the fact that they're B17s.

America has lots of small bonuses that don't focus them in any particular direction. They have two unique units, which would indicate that they're a warmonger, but they don't really get much in the way of bonuses to help them wage war. They can buy tiles at half-price, but you hardly do that in your average game. They get extra sight, which is good for short bursts of the game and merely convenient for the rest. They get extra golden age points and a slightly upgraded musket dude. They get a good bomber.

None of it has any focus. Sure, you can do well as America, but really you'll be doing well in spite of your civ choice rather than because of it.
 

DemonMaster

A.K.A. Fenhorn
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Does this golden age thing follow the unit when you upgrade it?

If it does, then it is OP since your army will always generate points for golden age from the renaissance and up. If it doesn't it is - fun as long as it lasts.
 

TLHeart

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Oct 15, 2005
Messages
615
Yes the golden age bonus stays when you upgrade the unit, so does the movement boost. Makes for a very strong military.

When I play America, I use the tile purchase on every new settled city. Makes grabbing that lux in the 3rd ring quick, or to grab that world wonder from a city state. Then I have a much larger area as the natural progression of culture tile buying happens.

One can chain golden ages with the musketman and the upgraded army.
 

DemonMaster

A.K.A. Fenhorn
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Yes the golden age bonus stays when you upgrade the unit, so does the movement boost. Makes for a very strong military.

When I play America, I use the tile purchase on every new settled city. Makes grabbing that lux in the 3rd ring quick, or to grab that world wonder from a city state. Then I have a much larger area as the natural progression of culture tile buying happens.

One can chain golden ages with the musketman and the upgraded army.

Hmm, ok, not more OP than other units or abilities. I didn't know that they needed a buff, that's all.
 

Scirocco16V

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Oct 9, 2012
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New Jersey, US
I find that the +1 sight range helps a lot in the early game when still exploring. I get to many more ancient ruins & city states first thanks to it.
 

headcase

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I'm also not a big fan of this, mainly for the 'cut+paste' reason. They could have made Minutemen ignore ZOC in neutral\friendly territory or something.

Alternatively, the UA sight bonus could be enhanced by ignoring hills and forests for line of sight (after all, the ability seems to imply they have a lot of scouting around the main unit rather than good optics) - that would be considerably powerful.
 

Gort

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I find that the +1 sight range helps a lot in the early game when still exploring. I get to many more ancient ruins & city states first thanks to it.

If this is what you want, take a look at the Shoshone. Start with a scout right off the bat, know a lot more map right away thanks to your free tiles, AND get to pick what you get in ancient ruins? THEN you also get a combat bonus in all your own massive territory. They seem to do the exploration + land-grab thing way better than America does.
 

Dentalfury

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Feb 7, 2011
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If this is what you want, take a look at the Shoshone. Start with a scout right off the bat, know a lot more map right away thanks to your free tiles, AND get to pick what you get in ancient ruins? THEN you also get a combat bonus in all your own massive territory. They seem to do the exploration + land-grab thing way better than America does.

I agree, my one game I played with the Shoshone was completely broken. If your aggressive about exploring and expansion the benefits are huge. The real trick is turning those benefits into something sustainable that will allow you to thrive in later eras.
 

eldiablonoche

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
87
I'm in the minority that loves both of America's UA benefits... enhanced sight on all military land units is amazing early on and really useful in most war situations. Gets better with artillery but always a tactical boon.

As for half tile purchase cost, I find myself buying tiles at one point or another in almost every game I ever play. Unless it's changed with the patch, the AI still won't settle if it can't have all 6 surrounding hexes so even buying one tile in the right spot can entirely remove the incentive to settle near me.

As for the new MM abilities... they're good too. if you're short of happiness it can get you to a golden age where you otherwise wouldn't and that's more EVERYTHING for several turns. Add to that that its on a decent upgrade path and you can get some good late game units. Also, more war incentive is a good thing.
 

civ54lyfe

Prince
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Dec 15, 2012
Messages
563
it's a given that Shoshone completely rules early game mega-benefits. America is a low/low-mid civ, but you need to try to milk what benefits you do get if starting a game with them.
 

BroOfTheSun

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Sep 6, 2012
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228
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Chicago
To me, trying to rationalize how the Golden Age bonus fits with America, the only thing I can think of is how America supports, honors, and celebrates their troops. US is a militaristic civ, and has fought wars pretty much for the nation's entire existence. There's a lot of fervor for supporting the troops in pretty much every war. Just think of commercials for the army, posters in WW2 saying to support troops/war effort, memorial day/veterans day, etc.. I'm no historian, but I'm sure there were similar things for earlier wars as well.

So it seems like this Golden Age bonus can fit that behavior, in how American's are very supportive of and celebrate their troops.
 
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