New Naval Civs Poll

[PhoenicianGold]

This seems to be one of the major bottlenecks for new civs. Many regional influencers were thassalocracies, and yet the developers seem to be keeping naval additions to a minimum in expansions (Indonesia, Netherlands, Maori, Phoenicia).

Assuming Portugal is inevitable and the devs don't release a massive naval expansion, there are not many slots left for naval civs. Maybe only one. So I want to figure out what that last naval civ could be.

Only new civs included here. So no Denmark. No Byzantium. And I'm also leaving out Italy/Venice just to give the other civs a chance (and because Italy is a really complicated issue generally).

 

[killmeplease]

how ireland is a naval civ?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

how ireland is a naval civ?

Grace O'Malley seems to be a frontrunner for a leader choice, not to mention people like the idea of a pirate civ. It seems like the only way Ireland will get into VI, and not unlikely.

 

[Siptah]

Oman & Swahili, obviously not both at the same time though. However, I'd like to have a civ from the Horn (could also be Ajuraan or Kilwa, which isn't on the Horn) or Oman. I don't really see the Haida, nor the Inuit, nor Ireland, nor the Taino as a naval civ (but I don't see the Maori as one as well). Coastal, sure.

 

[awesome]

Not only were the Haida called "the Vikings of the Pacific Northwest" by Europeans, but they were pretty much the only people in the area with that kind of maritime technology. Of course they were a naval people.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Oman & Swahili, obviously not both at the same time though. However, I'd like to have a civ from the Horn (could also be Ajuraan or Kilwa, which isn't on the Horn) or Oman. I don't really see the Haida, nor the Inuit, nor Ireland, nor the Taino as a naval civ (but I don't see the Maori as one as well). Coastal, sure.

To be fair, the Maori as implemented quickly become more land-based, but that only further serves my point that we aren't getting many naval civs.

The Inuit invented the term kayak. The Taino invented the term canoe. Both clearly spent some of their early development migrating by ocean, and I think there is a good chance either civ would have some sort of naval focus, if minor. Same with the Haida.

And as I've stated, Ireland just barely made the cut because of Grace O'Malley, being the closest thing to a Pirate civ without having to stretch something like the Buccaneers into something resembling a polity.

Thing is, I like all of these civs as concepts, including Oman/Swahili, but all of them have some shortcoming or other from a game design perspective. So I expect they will go with the most popular idea, whatever it is. I believe on the V steam mods, Oman and Inuit are pretty popular.

 

[Siptah]

Well, let‘s hope Phoenicia turns out to be a naval civ to get a at least one in GS.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Well, let‘s hope Phoenicia turns out to be a naval civ to get a at least one in GS.

Beach please. I need my fix.

 

[679x]

Yea, the Haida could be a sort of combination of naval raider + cultural civ, with some war-canoe themed bonus - heck, what if Haida naval units could travel up river? Would be very unique and would make a naval civ a bit more relevant on a map like Pangaea or in games where no one is settling coastal cities. Add in Totem poles as a monument replacement or unique improvement.

I voted for Oman too, but I don't have any ideas for them as a civ.

 

[awesome]

I voted for Haida, obviously, but also Swahili, because while Oman did have its own empire, I figured that it technically fell under Arabia.
Either way, whether you get Oman or Swahili, you'll probably end up with a Dhow or Ngalawa unique unit. The Dhow would probably fit as a renaissance unit, and I'm not really sure about the Ngalawa. Maybe I'll have to do some research on both.

 

[Siptah]

Oman got independent pretty early though, due to developing its own Ibadi faith.

 

[monstercat]

I'd love the Polynesian area to be split into Hawaii and the Maori, with Hawaii being the generic Polynesian civ, and the Maori being more militaristic (and actually having a real historical leader like Hone Heke)

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I voted for Haida, obviously, but also Swahili, because while Oman did have its own empire, I figured that it technically fell under Arabia.
Either way, whether you get Oman or Swahili, you'll probably end up with a Dhow or Ngalawa unique unit. The Dhow would probably fit as a renaissance unit, and I'm not really sure about the Ngalawa. Maybe I'll have to do some research on both.

It looks like Oman is currently leading the poll, and honestly something along the Swahili coast seems like the last big region on the map that could use filling.

I had an idea that if corporations return, Oman/Swahili or Chola could get luxury resource bonuses to indirectly synergize with that system. Granted, I'm not sure if Portugal might get that bonus instead and removing a luxury niche.

Portugal really is a problem child. It was clearly influential enough to include in every Civ game, but it makes it really difficult to include other trader civs in Africa and Asia. If there were an elegant way to include them as part of "Spain" I would prefer that to open up design space, but unlike Byzantium or Kievan Rus, Portugal for a number of reasons will never feel "Spanish." Technically Philip already represents the Iberian union, and clearly it doesn't feel like Portugal is at all represented yet.

Harumph. I just want a non-European naval trader civ dammit. Is there even the slightest chance that the new coastal city design is hinting at the addition of a lot more naval civs in the future?

 

[Phrozen]

Oman got independent pretty early though, due to developing its own Ibadi faith.

Oman was never part of the Caliphate really. The Ibadi's were the first split from Islam and they were kicked out of the Caliphate to Oman.

 

[Siptah]

Oman was never part of the Caliphate really. The Ibadi's were the first split from Islam and they were kicked out of the Caliphate to Oman.

The region was part of the Umayyad Caliphate for 200 years though. But I think that we actually agree that they shouldn‘t be seen as part of the civ labeled Arabia.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

The region was part of the Umayyad Caliphate for 200 years though. But I think that we actually agree that they shouldn‘t be seen as part of the civ labeled Arabia.

Indisputably. In the same way that Morocco shouldn't be either.

Which creates another complication, because several of the things that would make Oman unique could also apply to Morocco. Not to mention I don't see the devs adding two Arabian offshoots in one expansion.

Which is why I am hoping that there will be DLC packs after a third expack. Most of these maritime civs are also competing against stronger candidates for inclusion. Maya will be included over Taino. Italy or Denmark will be included over Ireland. Siam or Burma or Vietnam will be included over Chola. The Haida are competing against the Blackfoot, Navajo, and Shoshone, as well as against the Inuit. So many great ideas will be left after a third expack regardless of who the devs choose.

 

[Siptah]

I would hold my horses bit more when it comes towards getting new civs. Even a third expansion or any DLC after GS is far from confirmed, so hoping for DLC after the third expansion is pretty much speculation without any base.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I would hold my horses bit more when it comes towards getting new civs. Even a third expansion or any DLC after GS is far from confirmed, so hoping for DLC after the third expansion is pretty much speculation without any base.

Speculation yes, but not baseless. For a number of reasons, 2K has every incentive to invest in long term support for their only tentpole; this business model is the direction every developer is moving and VI was clearly designed to support it. Unless and until they find other sources of revenue, VI needs to sustain them. And the cost of moving onto VII--the loss of so much aesthetic investment coupled with another few years of players waiting to make the plunge--is daunting. Right now they get regular incremental income as well as are devleloping as a perennial celebration among the gaming community. It would be hard to stop.

Furthermore, their current model displays meticulous calculation to sell. 8 civs, four returning, four new or fixed. Three female leaders: just enough representation without overwhelming the male playerbase. One classic domination civ to sell the thing to veterans. One quirky modern sports based civ to sell the thing to casuals.

This model can be scaled to any size DLC. A DLC pack with one highly requested classic would sell regardless of what other civ(s) are attached to it. Hell we could argue that Mongolia and the Ottomans single handedly sell the current expacks. And the same could be said of any leaders expack which included George Washington or Napoleon. Doesn't matter if it's two or twenty, doesn't matter how obscure the leaders are.

So really, under the current business model, the devs appear to feel like they can keep developing content as long as they have major draws up their sleeve. Portugal will likely be that civ that sells a third expack. And after that, DLC packs of Ethiopia + X, Morocco + X, Denmark + X, Maya + X, whatever they missed in the third expack, would still be fairly safe investments. Especially if they were a little extra and included new scenarios or alt leaders to sweeten the deal. Hell, I would even argue certain countries with high playerbases would also be safe investments and could sell an expack composed of completely new civs: Mexico, Ireland, and Italy in particular.

Regardless, as impressive as VI already is, I get the overwhelming impression it has at least eight more civs planned conservatively, and optimistically will be milking the game even further beyond that.

 

[awesome]

I remember talk of developers wishing they could have made a third expansion for civ 5. I don't know if this is the game where we'll get that, but it would make sense. I don't think we'll get more dlc besides that, though, since it's not like civilization is really the type of game where they can do simple stuff like different outfits for the leaderheads.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I remember talk of developers wishing they could have made a third expansion for civ 5. I don't know if this is the game where we'll get that, but it would make sense. I don't think we'll get more dlc besides that, though, since it's not like civilization is really the type of game where they can do simple stuff like different outfits for the leaderheads.

It doesn't need to be simple stuff. Many other tentpole games release regular content, new jobs/characters, etc. Australia, Poland, Khmer, Indonesia, Persia, Macedon, and Nubia have all confirmed that players will pay for DLC civs. So if they have ideas for more than eight civs, there is little reason for them not to develop and sell them already.

I suspect the biggest limitation is what voice-acting/music they will have already recorded by the release of the third expack. It is harder to get that together once the main development cycle has been disbanded, but as far as the rest they could have a smaller dev team churn out a couple civs once or twice a year until everything is out.